2020 Green Bay Packers Defensive Line

[AlexGreen#20]

24 minutes ago, Joe said:

I was looking at the Philly game where they just went up the middle on us with a bigger back and Pettine couldn't find a way to stop it. With the 49ers game, the issue there was a lack of athleticism at ILB because the position has been generally ignored in the draft with the exception of Burks who is made of glass...

49ers wasn't even athleticism. They stayed out of their 3 WR stuff and challenged us to play Base (4DBs) or Heavy (3DBs). 

Pettine started looking at his guys and counting, Clark, Smith, Smith, Martinez, Lowry . . . Lancaster . . . Goodson . . . , . .  Adams???

Straight up ran out of playable size.

 

[craig]

14 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I think Amos is playing 10/Scrape. 

Lowry has B.

Preston has C.

Redmond has D.

Jaire has the inside force. In this case E to F. 

The pulling Guard forces Jaire to F. That means you need your guy playing 10/Scrape to have diagnosed "Not A" and scraped over the top. Redmond getting hit 5 yards downfield certainly didn't make this any easier. 

If Amos doesn't take those ugly false steps on the snap, he's got a shot here.

Agree, Preston starting outside the TE and then needing to sprint laterally to get inside the TE and take C burns it.  In a sense, whether it was coaching instruction or just dumb read on his part, his part seems more problematic.  Lowry has B, and while he doesn't dominate and bend the line backward, he's getting double-teams, and between him and the two hogs blocking him, there really isn't any space to run in his B.  Again, he was double-teamed.  But Preston is sprinting to the middle and he is single-teamed, and he just gets totally tossed right on top of where Lowry and his two blockers are already stacked.  

In a sense, all three of Preston, Amos, and Redmond are all flowing to the middle and all converging on Lowry's pileup, while all abandoning the outside.  Like you say, if Amos scrapes over, it's fine.  If Redmond gets in the way, it's different.  

In that particular set, it would seem that keeping Preston setting the edge for D would have been better; then letting whatever happens to Lowry happen at B; then at the onset of that video it seems that both Amos and Redmon are both lined up to plug C, had Preston just stayed D. 

Or, from a different perspective, if you look where the original C gap was Or if Preston had been able to actually plug where the original C was, it was right on the grid marks.  And that's EXACTLY where the back ended up running through.  So *if* Preston was supposed to cover C, *if* he had actually plugged where C began, the runner would have needed a totally different path.  But Preston started outside the TE in D, then just sprints laterally right past the original C and ends up just running and getting further pushes onto the top of the Lowry B pileup.  

Ugly play by a lot of players.  

[MrBobGray]

18 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

I think Amos is playing 10/Scrape. 

Lowry has B.

Preston has C.

Redmond has D.

Jaire has the inside force. In this case E to F. 

The pulling Guard forces Jaire to F. That means you need your guy playing 10/Scrape to have diagnosed "Not A" and scraped over the top. Redmond getting hit 5 yards downfield certainly didn't make this any easier. 

If Amos doesn't take those ugly false steps on the snap, he's got a shot here.

Yeah good call, although watching it more think this falls as much on Redmond, who I just realized on my fifteenth watch is playing FS while Savage is in the slot manning the D gap.  Amos could still have killed this play with the false steps if he scraped hard enough off Preston, but the chance is gone by the time he feels it.  Which isn't surprising, since he's a SS, not a LB; asking him to have the eyes and feel to play the A gap from 30 alignment and still be in a position to scrape hard off the OLB in such a light front seems destined to go about like it did.  Which could also be said about the concept of playing dime with a 7-man box against the Eagles 11-personnel with both A gaps at least partially uncovered.  

That being said, pretty sure Redmond is supposed to be the alley player here; Preston and Savage both spill it to the force but Redmond is just waaaaay late coming down.  I realize it's 11 personnel and you don't want to give up a freebie over the top, but Savage spills, Jaire forces, and Redmond is just wandering around twenty yards downfield.  Amos can and should be able to scrape and replace for no gain, but this shouldn't have been more than a 7 yard run at most.

7 hours ago, Packerraymond said:

It makes no sense, natural containment leverage and you take it away from them and force them to crash which almost always takes your ability to strike the OL first. If I didn't like Pettine's pass game playbook I'd be so angry he's back.

Pettine has no choice by his own design.  Running a 2-"4" from dime leaves you with so many open gaps on the LoS against 11-personnel with a Y that what else can you do?  Preston and Lowry are the only men on the line from the backside A gap to the strongside D, no way can you let Preston play contain from this alignment.  Only option is to spill it with Preston and Redmond and hope either Amos can get there or Redmond can clean it up.  Of course, maybe your point is that then they should never play this alignment against a potential running play, in which case we're fully in agreement and we can drown our sorrows together.

Your Shanahan comment was dead on, this is pretty clearly Pettine trying to be too smart by half and outfox everyone by not really playing run defense at all.  This play has a chance and works if everyone plays it just right; Preston crashes hard enough that when the TE goes for the seal the entire line of scrimmage goes with them.  If Amos reads this immediately and scrapes off Preston hard enough he's right in the hole with Howard and it's a relatively easy tackle for minimal gain.  Howard's a good RB but beating his man in a phonebooth isn't a strength of his.  But again, asking your damn SS to play the A gap from 30 and still be in good position to scrape all the way back over the OLB crashing D->C is just a recipe for disaster.  

Sometimes Pettine shows a nice sense of using players for what they do well, and then you have plays like this where he asks half his defense to do things that just aren't in their skill set.  Lowry's trying to anchor a double, Preston is just filling gaps, and Amos is supposed to read the play across half the formation from a vantage he rarely plays.  Then on top of everything they let Savage walk into the box so Redmond can play deep.  If any of your formations have you defending the run with a 2-3 front and your best FS at slot and your bad slot at FS and your great SS at ILB THEN MAYBE JUST TEAR THAT PAGE OUT OF THE OLE PLAY BOOK MIKE.

Edited July 23, 2020 by MrBobGray

[Shanedorf]

The esteemed Dr. Green and Dr. Gray have done an impressive job of diagnosing the patients' maladies...
...and perhaps now is the time to start talking about the cure.

Give Kenny Clark a proven running mate and let Lowry, Lancaster and Keke be the solid rotational players they are

 

[VonKarman]

Give them Everson Griffen.

[MrBobGray]

5 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

Here's SI with Pettine's comments on Keke Kinglsey, quoted below

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/ranking-the-packers-no-28-kingsley-keke

Both Pettine and Montgomery have talked often of their desire to rotate the Big Guys to keep them fresh - but that's not what happened last year with the starters playing too many snaps and the back-ups getting very few. In the case of Kingsley Keke, he was busy re-making his body AND trying to learn NFL DL techniques

This quote offers a hint at why he didn't see more snaps in 2019:
 

“We saw the talent coming out of Texas A&M, but he was just very raw,” Pettine said during an offseason Zoom call. “Had a pretty good knack as a pass rusher, had some natural ability there. Just as far as his run technique, pad level, playing with his hands and having a good understanding of all the information we gather pre-snap: What is the formation? What is the down-and-distance? What personnel grouping are they in? What’s the formation telling us – is it a fullback? Is he tilted one way? Is the tight end off the ball? What are the lines – all the little details that takes guys sometimes a while not only to learn but then also to be able to apply it.”

Given everything we've discussed with Pettine's run scheme, this comment makes me chuckle.  I just keep thinking "I bet Keke is pretty confused when you make him learn all this and then totally ignore it with the playcall anyway."  

[Shanedorf]

Just now, MrBobGray said:

Given everything we've discussed with Pettine's run scheme

Its really bizarro world...Pettine talks about using his DL rotation to keep em fresh, but then he doesn't do it
Pettine talks about "KILL", Keep it Likeable and Learnable, but then he doesn't do it

On the other side of the coin, the Packers were still # 9 in points allowed, giving up only 19.6 per game despite the DL and gap control issues

[MrBobGray]

52 minutes ago, Shanedorf said:

The esteemed Dr. Green and Dr. Gray have done an impressive job of diagnosing the patients' maladies...
...and perhaps now is the time to start talking about the cure.

Give Kenny Clark a proven running mate and let Lowry, Lancaster and Keke be the solid rotational players they are

 

I'm less bullish on Snacks than some are, but he'd help in a big way.  If they can get him for < $5 mill AVV, then I am in like Flynn.

[deathstar]

1 hour ago, Shanedorf said:

Its really bizarro world...Pettine talks about using his DL rotation to keep em fresh, but then he doesn't do it
Pettine talks about "KILL", Keep it Likeable and Learnable, but then he doesn't do it

On the other side of the coin, the Packers were still # 9 in points allowed, giving up only 19.6 per game despite the DL and gap control issues

The passing game is what drives everything.

[Shanedorf]

Just now, deathstar said:

The passing game is what drives everything.

That might be trending toward a past tense comment as more and more teams move away from the 11 personnel passing world
(In the NFCCG, it took only 6 completions to notch a win)

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2020/2019-offensive-personnel-analysis

"Two years ago, only one team stood against the oncoming tide of 11 dominance: Kyle Shanahan's 49ers were the only squad to use 11 personnel on fewer than half their plays...But then, in 2019, Shanahan's 49ers no longer stood alone. Be it out of strategic intent or injury-induced necessity, four more teams used 11 personnel on fewer than half their plays last season -- the Baltimore Ravens, Philadelphia Eagles, Arizona Cardinals, and Minnesota Vikings. That's a fairly impressive list of offenses, too

But it wasn't just a couple of teams zigging where everyone else zagged. Twenty-one teams saw their 11 personnel percentage drop from 2018 to 2019. A dozen teams saw their 11 personnel percentage drop by at least five points. Eight teams -- a full quarter of the league -- saw their 11 personnel percentage drop by at least ten percentage points"
 

Its still a passing league, but the pendulum is swinging back a bit toward more balanced attacks
Cat vs mouse continues - both on the personnel and the playcalling side

[Shanedorf]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

I'm less bullish on Snacks than some are, but he'd help in a big way.

@squire12 had posted a full list of talented DL FAs going into March and GB fans watched as each one signed with another team. The only thing that made sense to me was that one of Pettine's former players was sorta lined up - and that fits for Harrison. Combined with his distaste for how the Lions treated him, it suggested a potential match in GB.

Pure speculation, but I just can't convince myself that the Packers front office saw what we saw... and were fine standing pat on the DL.

[Brat&Beer]

I think Pettine is really counting on Keke to make a difference. He seems to realize he needs someone who can do what Daniels was doing in 2018 before he got hurt. That way he can return Lowry and Lancaster back to the more productive roles they had in 2018. 

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/ranking-the-packers-no-28-kingsley-keke

Quote

“He was a guy that as the year went on, he got his opportunities in there (and) he was productive for us,” Pettine said. “That’s somebody that we’re looking forward to having a much more increased role. I don’t think it was any secret. It felt like Kenny played too many plays, Tyler is more of a true backup nose, we wanted to get Dean off the field some, too. So, developing some depth in that room [is important], so that means Keke is going to have to step up.”

 

[MrBobGray]

19 hours ago, Shanedorf said:

That might be trending toward a past tense comment as more and more teams move away from the 11 personnel passing world
(In the NFCCG, it took only 6 completions to notch a win)

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2020/2019-offensive-personnel-analysis

"Two years ago, only one team stood against the oncoming tide of 11 dominance: Kyle Shanahan's 49ers were the only squad to use 11 personnel on fewer than half their plays...But then, in 2019, Shanahan's 49ers no longer stood alone. Be it out of strategic intent or injury-induced necessity, four more teams used 11 personnel on fewer than half their plays last season -- the Baltimore Ravens, Philadelphia Eagles, Arizona Cardinals, and Minnesota Vikings. That's a fairly impressive list of offenses, too

But it wasn't just a couple of teams zigging where everyone else zagged. Twenty-one teams saw their 11 personnel percentage drop from 2018 to 2019. A dozen teams saw their 11 personnel percentage drop by at least five points. Eight teams -- a full quarter of the league -- saw their 11 personnel percentage drop by at least ten percentage points"
 

Its still a passing league, but the pendulum is swinging back a bit toward more balanced attacks
Cat vs mouse continues - both on the personnel and the playcalling side

It's hard to imagine a scenario where running is ever close to passing efficiency-wise.  Doesn't mean there isn't other good reasons both strategic and tactical to run the ball, but it's just hard to imagine how the game could change to the point where passing isn't the primary method for offensive success.

That being said, this was fascinating to read because it put into context something I had never considered: our WR room is so damn big because MLF still wants to run basically a Shanahan offense but without the corresponding drop in 11 personnel.  Lazard, Funchess, EQ, and Kumerow are all WRs who can block at least as well as your average back-up TE.  So instead of loading your roster with street FA TEs and H-Back types, just load it with giant receivers and do the same.  Your wide zone concepts get a big boost from having a corps of redwoods out there blocking, but if the defense even thinks of trying base you can just move Jones/Deguara out wide and play 5 wide against them with the same guys.

[Brat&Beer]

28 minutes ago, MrBobGray said:

That being said, this was fascinating to read because it put into context something I had never considered: our WR room is so damn big because MLF still wants to run basically a Shanahan offense but without the corresponding drop in 11 personnel.  Lazard, Funchess, EQ, and Kumerow are all WRs who can block at least as well as your average back-up TE.  So instead of loading your roster with street FA TEs and H-Back types, just load it with giant receivers and do the same.  Your wide zone concepts get a big boost from having a corps of redwoods out there blocking, but if the defense even thinks of trying base you can just move Jones/Deguara out wide and play 5 wide against them with the same guys.

WE don't know for sure if MLF wants to run that much 11 though. He might have done that last year because he didn't have the FB/HB he really wants. Now that he has DeGuara though, who is a real system fit, we may well see more 12 than we've seen in the past. 

[craig]

1 hour ago, MrBobGray said:

It's hard to imagine a scenario where running is ever close to passing efficiency-wise.  ...

I think a contributing factor to the modest reemphasis on running has been as a response to shifts in defensive personnel.  

1. Usage of nickel and dime has drifted up over the years.
2. Emphasis on light, fast, pass-coverage ILB and reduced emphasis and usage of physical run-tackling ILB.   As guys in the box get fewer and smaller, defenses become more vulnerable to the run.