Raiders place Marcus Mariota on IR

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, dante9876 said:

It's not. We say it's in overpay all the time when players get paid. Why all the sudden we need to see guys play first. Do you think another team was gonna pay nassib that much to be a rotational pass rusher at most. And 8 sacks would be nice if its consistent. He can get 4 sacks in one game vs the worst oline in league than get 4 in the other 15 games and not get consistent pressure. No I wouldn't be happy with that and still call him an overpay. 

Relative to what other edge rushers got in free agency, Nassib got paid at market price. He signed like the 11th biggest deal for an edge player in free agency. The Buccaneers used him a lot as a 3-4 rush linebacker. He's going to have his hand in the dirt full time as an edge player here, something he said he was excited about during a recent interview. 

[Darbsk]

11 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

Has BB in NE also mismanaged his entire offseason after giving up a 2nd round pick for Sanu then cutting him this offseason, losing Brady, not resigning Collins or KVN and replacing them with no name scrubs?

i am not a fan nor have I ever been a huge Gruden fan but the jury is out on Mayock.  Considering the dumpster fire of a roster he inherited I think this team is progressing along well.  Everyone expects perfection and look at BB in NE this offseason and tell me if his was perfect?  Watch him make the playoffs again. 

I think there are a couple issues with this line of thinking.......

I) BB may have made some mistakes but I think he has earned a little bit of leeway by bringing the organisation a half dozen Super Bowls.

 II) You're not going to agree with this but IMO the team they inherited wasn't a dumpster fire. Over the previous two seasons we went 18-14 and reached the playoffs. We gad a foundation piece on Offense and Defence and several decent complimentary pieces. We had an OL bordering on elite. The roster became a dumpster fire only when Gruden gutted it.

Now, its important to know I like Mayock and think he's made sone very good moves, I like Gruden as a coach (not a talent evaluator as he's too emotional and impulsive) but they simply haven't earned the benefit of the doubt just yet. I think we need to give them both this season before rushing to judgement but we should be willing to hold them to account if needed.

[Frankie2Gunz]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

I think there are a couple issues with this line of thinking.......

I) BB may have made some mistakes but I think he has earned a little bit of leeway by bringing the organisation a half dozen Super Bowls.

 II) You're not going to agree with this but IMO the team they inherited wasn't a dumpster fire. Over the previous two seasons we went 18-14 and reached the playoffs. We gad a foundation piece on Offense and Defence and several decent complimentary pieces. We had an OL bordering on elite. The roster became a dumpster fire only when Gruden gutted it.

Now, its important to know I like Mayock and think he's made sone very good moves, I like Gruden as a coach (not a talent evaluator as he's too emotional and impulsive) but they simply haven't earned the benefit of the doubt just yet. I think we need to give them both this season before rushing to judgement but we should be willing to hold them to account if needed.

If that is your stance tell me the players on those rosters that we should have kept?  You're obviously going to say Mack and Cooper, who might I add were traded because they wanted elite money and in Macks case by the time this team contended he would be over the hill.  Cooper is a disappearing act who is now the Cowgirls 20 million dollar per yer problem.  

Who besides Mack or Cooper (I feel like we should have received more value for Mack but cooper was fair value) did we lose that made this team not a dumpster fire?

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, Darbsk said:

II) You're not going to agree with this but IMO the team they inherited wasn't a dumpster fire. Over the previous two seasons we went 18-14 and reached the playoffs. We gad a foundation piece on Offense and Defence and several decent complimentary pieces. We had an OL bordering on elite. The roster became a dumpster fire only when Gruden gutted it.

Meh. The only high level players that Gruden moved on from were Mack and Cooper. The 18-14 record is skewed because we had one really good season and one terrible season. Our OL wasn't bordering on elite because Penn/Osemele were both washed up when he got here. And in terms of the defense he inherited only 4 players from that unit are currently starting in the NFL just two years later. (Whitehead, Mack, Irvin, Harris) 

When Mayock inherited the team we had two 2nd year starting OT that were coming off of rough rookie seasons and our primary weapons were Jordy Nelson, Seth Roberts, and Doug Martin. Our best pass rusher was Arden Key, we pretty much had nothing at LB, and our 3 best secondary players were Karl Joseph, Gareon Conley, and Daryl Worley. 

The biggest issue was that Reggie McKenzie was a horrible draft guy. Between 2012-2017 we made 50 draft selections, only 6 of those players are currently starting on NFL rosters. (Mack, Carr, Jackson, Cooper, Joseph, and Harris)

[Darbsk]

2 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

If that is your stance tell me the players on those rosters that we should have kept?  You're obviously going to say Mack and Cooper, who might I add were traded because they wanted elite money and in Macks case by the time this team contended he would be over the hill.  Cooper is a disappearing act who is now the Cowgirls 20 million dollar per yer problem.  

Who besides Mack or Cooper (I feel like we should have received more value for Mack but cooper was fair value) did we lose that made this team not a dumpster fire?

I would have traded Cooper too, that wasn't a bad move IMO, he didn't want to be here and wouldnt be worth the money from us. Crabs I would have kept as he had comfort with Carr. Mack IMHO was a huge mistake for me, really ripped the heart out of the team. If you have an elite talent at a premier position you build round him. Once he went the heads dropped and guys were quitting mid season.

With respect to that team that Gruden inherited, would you say they played to their potential in 2017 at 6-10? Most people think they vastly underperformed after the previous year due to coaching, injury to Carr and a few other issues. So, logic dictates that if they went 6-10 and vastly underperformed then they should have been maybe a 9-7 team with a little good fortune? That is not a dumpster fire. I openly admit we weren't a genuine '12-4 type' team and 2016 was probably our ceiling when everything went well but we should have challenged for the playoffs IMO that was the talent level.

I will be honest and say I cant really remember who were the FAs available for the 2018 season but I would have looked to build on the excellent OL, keeping Penn at LT instead of moving him to the right, built the DL around Mack and Hankins who was a good signing. I would have brought back Autry on the DL and looked to draft a complimentary RE, though I did want to sign Robert Quinn as he was underrated and great value. I would have brought back Bowman at MLB and played Joseph at S instead of Nelson. Imagine Mack, Hankins, Autry and Quinn on the DL and Penn, Osemele, Hudson, Gabe and Brown on the OL (in a PBS) 😀 that would have been a decent foundation.

Like I say, its not a 12-4 roster but we had the makings of an elite OL, huge potential on the DL, a franchise QB (IMO but I think you're a Carr guy too) and I'd have looked to add some weapons and bolster the LB core and CBs. We had money in FA and a full raft of draft picks even if we ignore the Mack trade picks. If we add, say Derwin James and Orlando Brown who I wanted in the draft and one or two mid range FAs we'd have a solid foundation to build on. Heck, even if we added Miller to take over from Penn that would have been good too.

I'm not going to list a ton of FAs or draft picks or go into detail about what I think we did wrong/right etc. as that would be unfair with the benefit of hindsight. The point is that we weren't a dumpster fire of a team, we had talent and a foundation though we did need an influx of talent particularly at the skill positions but it should have been a great template for Gruden and later Mayock to build off of.

[NYRaider]

6 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Like I say, its not a 12-4 roster but we had the makings of an elite OL, huge potential on the DL, a franchise QB (IMO but I think you're a Carr guy too) and I'd have looked to add some weapons and bolster the LB core and CBs. 

Makings of an elite OL? How exactly? Penn and Osemele were both washed up when Gruden took over and we had to start two rookie OT the entire season. What huge potential did we have on the DL? We had Mack and then really nothing after him, Autry is an okay player but certainly not a piece with huge potential, and then guys like Hankins/Irvin who were okay. 

On offense the only legit weapons we had were Cooper/Cook and then a bunch of borderline NFL roster guys or washed up veterans. And we also had probably the worst back 7 of any team in the league. 

Our record during the 2016 was also pretty skewed because of how favorably the schedule worked out for us. We were 8-0 vs teams that finished at .500 or below and 4-4 vs teams with winning records. And in those 8 wins vs losing teams, 5 of them came by 3 points or less. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by NYRaider

[Darbsk]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Makings of an elite OL? How exactly? Penn and Osemele were both washed up when Gruden took over and we had to start two rookie OT the entire season. What huge potential did we have on the DL? We had Mack and then really nothing after him, Autry is an okay player but certainly not a piece with huge potential, and then guys like Hankins/Irvin who were okay. 

On offense the only legit weapons we had were Cooper/Cook and then a bunch of borderline NFL roster guys or washed up veterans. And we also had probably the worst back 7 of any team in the league. 

Penn started the year after for the Washington team and was far from a liability so a safe bet he would have been solid at least after playing really well the previous couple years. We moved him to RT and he struggled and got injured. Osemele I wouldn't argue with but he did lose weight to play in a more zone oriented system which was a poor team decision so maybe we could replace him, dont disagree there. Guard is not the most onerous position to add. 

Autry had a great season for the Colts the year after and was exactly what we needed at 3T. We had capital and draft picks to add talent but we decided to tear the roster down. Mack is a HoF defender, Hankins, Autry and say, Quinn would have been a very good front IMO. We simply didn't get complimentary pieces in place.

Look, I'm not arguing we were a great team but I am arguing we weren't a 'dumster fire' until Gruden starting taking a wrecking ball to the roster. 

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Penn started the year after for the Washington team and was far from a liability so a safe bet he would have been solid at least after playing really well the previous couple years. We moved him to RT and he struggled and got injured. Osemele I wouldn't argue with but he did lose weight to play in a more zone oriented system which was a poor team decision so maybe we could replace him, dont disagree there. Guard is not the most onerous position to add. 

Autry had a great season for the Colts the year after and was exactly what we needed at 3T. We had capital and draft picks to add talent but we decided to tear the roster down. Mack is a HoF defender, Hankins, Autry and say, Quinn would have been a very good front IMO. We simply didn't get complimentary pieces in place.

Look, I'm not arguing we were a great team but I am arguing we weren't a 'dumster fire' until Gruden starting taking a wrecking ball to the roster. 

So in your opinion the only two things that transformed our roster from respectable to a dumpster fire was letting go of Penn/Autry and then trading Cooper/Mack? 

Again, what was so impressive about the roster Gruden inherited? Outside of Cooper/Cook we had no weapons offensively, our line was aging and falling apart, we had nothing in terms of pass rushing outside of Mack, and we had the worst LB/secondary group in the league. 

As I mentioned earlier, McKenzie made 50 draft selections between 2012-2017 before Gruden took over. Of those 50 only 6 are currently starting on NFL rosters, Mack/Cooper who we traded for 3 1st round picks, Carr/Jackson who are starters here, and then Karl Joseph and Shelby Harris. 

[Frankie2Gunz]

15 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

So in your opinion the only two things that transformed our roster from respectable to a dumpster fire was letting go of Penn/Autry and then trading Cooper/Mack? 

Again, what was so impressive about the roster Gruden inherited? Outside of Cooper/Cook we had no weapons offensively, our line was aging and falling apart, we had nothing in terms of pass rushing outside of Mack, and we had the worst LB/secondary group in the league. 

As I mentioned earlier, McKenzie made 50 draft selections between 2012-2017 before Gruden took over. Of those 50 only 6 are currently starting on NFL rosters, Mack/Cooper who we traded for 3 1st round picks, Carr/Jackson who are starters here, and then Karl Joseph and Shelby Harris. 

I would interject but you're summing up the dumpster fire that we were quite nicely.  Our rosters were complete trash and there should be no one stating otherwise.  Aurty?  Really....  Come on man.

[Darbsk]

2 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

So in your opinion the only two things that transformed our roster from respectable to a dumpster fire was letting go of Penn/Autry and then trading Cooper/Mack? 

No, obviously not.

Trading Mack, that caused Irvin to quit and probably affected Carr as they were close. We lost our only form of pass rush instead of adding pieces around a HoF pass rusher and surprise, surprise we had one of the worst pass rushes ever. Not just poor but historically, laughably, embarrassingly bad.

We basically lost both tackles as we made Penn a bad fit at RT who subsequently got injured so we started two rookies, one of which was absolutely awful and overmatched and this meant we had to adapt our whole passing game. We let our best penetrating DT go and didnt bring back or replace a green dot MLB which meant the D was confused, often misaligned and gave up numerous big plays. Joseph was clearly our best safety but we kept him on the bench and then misused him when he did get chance.

Obviously Gruden knew he was going to tear it down so we didnt go after young up and coming FAs, we signed guys like Jordy Nelson, Rucker, Gilchrist as 1 year stop gaps instead of adding complimentary players. The Bryant trade was a disaster. We started overmatched rookies like Key, Parker and Hurst instead of letting them rotate in and get their feet wet. Guys quit mid season as they knew what was happening.

It was a snowball effect.

[Darbsk]

6 minutes ago, Frankie2Gunz said:

I would interject but you're summing up the dumpster fire that we were quite nicely.  Our rosters were complete trash and there should be no one stating otherwise.  Aurty?  Really....  Come on man.

Autry had 9 sacks after signing for the Colts the year after, playing DT. Our entire team had 13 😁😬

Mack had a DPoTY season and 15 sacks, add a guy like Quinn who I suggested pre FA and you dont think there'd be a massive difference that would make the whole D better?

[NYRaider]

Just now, Darbsk said:

No, obviously not.

Trading Mack, that caused Irvin to quit and probably affected Carr as they were close. We lost our only form of pass rush instead of adding pieces around a HoF pass rusher and surprise, surprise we had one of the worst pass rushes ever. Not just poor but historically, laughably, embarrassingly bad.

We basically lost both tackles as we made Penn a bad fit at RT who subsequently got injured so we started two rookies, one of which was absolutely awful and overmatched and this meant we had to adapt our whole passing game. We let our best penetrating DT go and didnt bring back or replace a green dot MLB which meant the D was confused, often misaligned and gave up numerous big plays. Joseph was clearly our best safety but we kept him on the bench and then misused him when he did get chance.

But even with all of this being said, you're implying that the only pieces that we lost that made a huge difference were trading Mack, Penn getting injured, and then losing Bowman/Autry in free agency. 

Even with the pieces you're mentioning in 2017 we ranked 23rd in yards allowed, 20th in points allowed, and 26th in sacks. In 2016 we ranked 26th in yards allowed, 20th in points allowed, and 32nd in sacks. Even with Mack and when we went to the playoffs our defense was a dumpster fire. 

[NYRaider]

5 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

Autry had 9 sacks after signing for the Colts the year after, playing DT. Our entire team had 13 😁😬

Mack had a DPoTY season and 15 sacks, add a guy like Quinn who I suggested pre FA and you dont think there'd be a massive difference that would make the whole D better?

Autry has had 5 or less sacks in 5/6 NFL seasons. Even when we had Autry and Mack in 2017 we still ranked 26th in total sacks. And as I said above in 2016 we ranked dead last in sacks despite Mack having 11 and us being a playoff team. Our defense has been terrible for a while and the 2016 season was an outlier because of how the schedule ended up panning out for us. We were 8-0 vs teams .500 or below and 5 of those wins came by 3 points or less and we were 4-4 vs teams with winning records. 

What good players from the Reggie era did Gruden let go that caused our roster to become a dumpster fire? Cooper/Mack? We acquired 3 1st round picks for them. Other than that we really didn't lose any key contributors that are good. 

Edited September 8, 2020 by NYRaider

[oakdb36]

Bowman never played a down of football after 2017. Why are you even talking about that guy?

[Darbsk]

11 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Autry has had 5 or less sacks in 5/6 NFL seasons. Even when we had Autry and Mack in 2017 we still ranked 26th in total sacks. And as I said above in 2016 we ranked dead last in sacks despite Mack having 11 and us being a playoff team. Our defense has been terrible for a while and the 2016 season was an outlier because of how the schedule ended up panning out for us. We were 8-0 vs teams .500 or below and 5 of those wins came by 3 points or less and we were 4-4 vs teams with winning records. 

What good players from the Reggie era did Gruden let go that caused our roster to become a dumpster fire? Cooper/Mack? We acquired 3 1st round picks for them. Other than that we really didn't lose any key contributors that are good. 

First of all, I think you're underestimating the impact of Mack and secondly We didn't compliment what we had, we let guys go and didnt try to compliment them or replace them with impact players, we actively deconstructed the roster.

Its not really that hard a concept, if we have 3 or 4 guys and we add two or three we have 6 or 7 good, impactful players. If we get rid of the 3 or 4 guys and add one year, cheap rentals we have literally no impact players.

Mack, Irvin, Autry, Penn, Bowman, Crabtree all contributed and whilst I'm not arguing that all were great we basically got nothing from any of them and didnt replace any production. That is not even considering the confidence aspect of gutting a team. If we kept them and added a few key FAs and rookies we wouldn't have been quite so devoid of talent. I think we've reached an impasse here, we weren't a dumpster fire until we started gutting the team is my contention. We took two steps back to try and take a leap forward and I get that. We'll never know what would have happened if we'd tried to build instead of totally dismantle.........