Darbsk Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, oakdb36 said: Bowman never played a down of football after 2017. Why are you even talking about that guy? He retired because he saw what was happening to the team and didnt want a part if a total rebuild but the year before he was a solid player for us that had he green dot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 Just now, Darbsk said: He retired because he saw what was happening to the team and didnt want a part if a total rebuild but the year before he was a solid player for us that had he green dot. Really? He was a FA, he could have signed with someone else but no team did. I wonder why! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 12 minutes ago, Darbsk said: Mack, Irvin, Autry, Penn, Bowman, Crabtree all contributed and whilst I'm not arguing that all were great we basically got nothing from any of them and didnt replace any production. That is not even considering the confidence aspect of gutting a team. If we kept them and added a few key FAs and rookies we wouldn't have been quite so devoid of talent. I think we've reached an impasse here, we weren't a dumpster fire until we started gutting the team is my contention. We took two steps back to try and take a leap forward and I get that. We'll never know what would have happened if we'd tried to build instead of totally dismantle......... Mack was a big loss but the rest of those guys weren't the difference between us being respectable and a dumpster fire. Bowman played 10 games for one of the worst defenses in the league, Irvin/Autry were okay pieces but we still had one of the worst pass rushes in the league with them, Penn tried to play and was 35/got hurt, Crabtree looked washed his last year here and has looked washed in his two stops after he left here. You're saying we gutted the roster because we didn't find impact FA? The team was so poorly built and devoid of talent when Gruden got here because Reggie couldn't draft. As I said earlier, 50 picks in a 5 year period and only 6 of them are currently NFL starters? That's pathetic. Mayock has had 16 picks over 2 years and 9 of them are already projected starters for us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 2 hours ago, Darbsk said: I would have traded Cooper too, that wasn't a bad move IMO, he didn't want to be here and wouldnt be worth the money from us. Crabs I would have kept as he had comfort with Carr. Mack IMHO was a huge mistake for me, really ripped the heart out of the team. If you have an elite talent at a premier position you build round him. Once he went the heads dropped and guys were quitting mid season. With respect to that team that Gruden inherited, would you say they played to their potential in 2017 at 6-10? Most people think they vastly underperformed after the previous year due to coaching, injury to Carr and a few other issues. So, logic dictates that if they went 6-10 and vastly underperformed then they should have been maybe a 9-7 team with a little good fortune? That is not a dumpster fire. I openly admit we weren't a genuine '12-4 type' team and 2016 was probably our ceiling when everything went well but we should have challenged for the playoffs IMO that was the talent level. I agree. I mean if we are saying we were a ‘dumpster fire’ then JDR must be some kind of coaching god to get 18 wins in 2 seasons out of that lot and I don’t think many will say that. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 54 minutes ago, Dessie said: I agree. I mean if we are saying we were a ‘dumpster fire’ then JDR must be some kind of coaching god to get 18 wins in 2 seasons out of that lot and I don’t think many will say that. Coaching god? Del Rio was 25-23 in 3 years here with two losing seasons. We were 8-19 (29%) against teams that finished the season with a winning record and 17-4 (80%) against teams that finished the season with a losing record. The 18 wins is once again, a skewed number, because 2/3 of those wins came in a single season. We had one of the worst defenses in the league every year he was our coach despite having the best defensive player in the league and JDR supposedly being a defensive coach. The only real differences between 2016 and his other two years here was that Carr was in his second year in Musgrave's offense and that we played more bad teams that year. When you look at how the roster was constructed in terms of what Gruden inherited it was pretty mediocre. Crabtree got older and fell off quickly, we lost Murray, and we had to replace 3 starters on the OL. The defense was always mediocre and when you look at the 2016/2017 depth charts, only 3 players from those defenses are still currently starting on NFL teams. 2016 was an outlier season where we overachieved because of a soft schedule and Carr playing out of his mind in clutch situations. We had 12 wins and during 7 of those we had to come back from behind in the 4th quarter to win it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, NYRaider said: When you look at how the roster was constructed in terms of what Gruden inherited it was pretty mediocre. Crabtree got older and fell off quickly, we lost Murray, and we had to replace 3 starters on the OL. The defense was always mediocre and when you look at the 2016/2017 depth charts, only 3 players from those defenses are still currently starting on NFL teams. Well that's exactly what I'm contending! I think we are getting too caught up in individual names. Frankie said that Gruden inherited a 'dumpster fire' which to me means a real bottom feeder, top 3 draft pick type team.......its trash and it's on fire 😀 I'm saying the team wasnt terrible until we traded away key pieces, failed to get any key free agents and generally ripped the confidence and any chemistry from the team, Carr especially suffered even though he was retained. I'm in total agreement the team wasn't great but it wasn't a horrible roster until Gruden made it so. Maybe he did the right thing, its impossible to say but I think we should have made several different moves and we'd be further ahead now. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 20 minutes ago, Darbsk said: Well that's exactly what I'm contending! I think we are getting too caught up in individual names. Frankie said that Gruden inherited a 'dumpster fire' which to me means a real bottom feeder, top 3 draft pick type team.......its trash and it's on fire 😀 I'm saying the team wasnt terrible until we traded away key pieces, failed to get any key free agents and generally ripped the confidence and any chemistry from the team, Carr especially suffered even though he was retained. I'm in total agreement the team wasn't great but it wasn't a horrible roster until Gruden made it so. Maybe he did the right thing, its impossible to say but I think we should have made several different moves and we'd be further ahead now. Exactly, not a horrible roster at all nor was it a ‘Dumpster fire’ or a ‘lucky 12 win season’ which is always trotted out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 17 minutes ago, Darbsk said: Well that's exactly what I'm contending! I think we are getting too caught up in individual names. Frankie said that Gruden inherited a 'dumpster fire' which to me means a real bottom feeder, top 3 draft pick type team.......its trash and it's on fire 😀 I'm saying the team wasnt terrible until we traded away key pieces, failed to get any key free agents and generally ripped the confidence and any chemistry from the team, Carr especially suffered even though he was retained. I'm in total agreement the team wasn't great but it wasn't a horrible roster until Gruden made it so. Maybe he did the right thing, its impossible to say but I think we should have made several different moves and we'd be further ahead now. He certainly did inherit one of the least talented rosters in the league. Again, Reggie McKenzie made 50 selections over 5 years and only 6 of those players are still starting on NFL teams. We got 3 first round picks for 2 of them (Cooper/Mack), one of them was on the roster up until last season (Joseph), one of them was a 7th round pick that never really played here (Harris), and two of them are starters here still. (Carr/Jackson) I mean when you look at our 2016/2017 offenses, outside of Carr/Jackson who are still starters here, only 3 other players are currently starting for other teams: Cooper, Cook, and Osemele. If you look at our 2016/2017 defenses, none of those guys are still starters here, and only 3 of the players that started here during those seasons are currently starting for other teams: Mack, Joseph, and Irvin. So if you're saying our team wasn't terrible until Gruden made it so, then where did all of that talent go? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 3 minutes ago, Dessie said: Exactly, not a horrible roster at all nor was it a ‘Dumpster fire’ or a ‘lucky 12 win season’ which is always trotted out. Again, referencing my post above, if it wasn't a horrible roster he inherited then where did all of that talent go? Why didn't any of that good talent we gutted go on to be key players on other teams? When we made the playoffs in 2016 we had 8 games against teams that finished below .500 and won 5 of those games by 3 points or less. We were dead last in sacks, 26th in total defense, and 20th in scoring defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, NYRaider said: Mack was a big loss but the rest of those guys weren't the difference between us being respectable and a dumpster fire. Bowman played 10 games for one of the worst defenses in the league, Irvin/Autry were okay pieces but we still had one of the worst pass rushes in the league with them, Penn tried to play and was 35/got hurt, Crabtree looked washed his last year here and has looked washed in his two stops after he left here. You're saying we gutted the roster because we didn't find impact FA? The team was so poorly built and devoid of talent when Gruden got here because Reggie couldn't draft. As I said earlier, 50 picks in a 5 year period and only 6 of them are currently NFL starters? That's pathetic. Mayock has had 16 picks over 2 years and 9 of them are already projected starters for us. No, I'm saying I think Gruden came in and had a vision to build the team entirely in his image so he didnt try to get long term, key Free Agents in his first year, that was a deconstruction. Its the other way around IMO. Penn was moved to the right side having played for 15 years on the left in an ill advised move which resulted in us starting 2 raw rookies. He was good the previous year and solid the year after so no reason to think he wouldn't be decent. Humour me these moves that were widely suggested: OL we keep Penn on the left and draft Derwin James at S in the 1st and Orlando Brown at RT in the second. We keep Mack, Autry and add good value in Hankins and Quinn. We retain Bowman to captain the D and keep Irvin at OLB where he played really well previously, he doesn't mail it in after Mack leaves. Cooper doesn't get so dejected and he plays the year and we trade him after the season, I still think we get a very high pick for him. We play 2018 with: Carr, Lynch, Cooper, Crabtree, Cook Penn, Osemele, Hudson, Jackson, Brown Mack, Hankins, Autry, Quinn Irvin, Bowman, Lee/Morrow Conley, James, Joseph, Worley/Lawson Now in 2019 we dont have the Mack picks but we can still add Trent Brown, Incognito, Goode, Jacobs, Crosby, Mullen etc. But maybe not Williams, Joyner, Ferrell or Abrams. That looks the basis of a pretty good team if we add in guys like Hurst, Mullen, Renfrow, Key, Moreau. Its hypothetical of course but not too 'Madden'. Edited September 8, 2020 by Darbsk 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 14 minutes ago, Darbsk said: Penn was moved to the right side having played for 15 years on the left in an ill advised move which resulted in us starting 2 raw rookies. He was good the previous year and solid the year after so no reason to think he wouldn't be decent. Humour me these moves that were widely suggested: OL we keep Penn on the left and draft Derwin James at S in the 1st and Orlando Brown at RT in the second. We keep Mack, Autry and add good value in Hankins and Quinn. Penn was old and got hurt that had nothing to do with him moving to the right side. You're saying Gruden inherited a good team based on revisionist history if we signed/drafted other players than what we actually had/did. Again there are very few players that were contributors on our 2016/2017 teams that are still making an impact in the league or starting for other teams... Showing that what he inherited was a poorly built team lacking talent across the board. Because we gutted the roster that we had those two seasons and none of those guys ever went to start anywhere else... But I mean I guess if we would've drafted better and also signed better free agents then sure, that means Gruden inherited a talented team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbsk Posted September 8, 2020 Share Posted September 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, NYRaider said: You're saying Gruden inherited a good team based on revisionist history if we signed/drafted other players than what we actually had/did No, I'm simply saying he didn't inherit a dumpster fire and with a few simple moves that lots of posters suggested we could have had a much better team in 2018 and been further down the road. Gruden decided to totally rebuild the team. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 8, 2020 Author Share Posted September 8, 2020 1 hour ago, Darbsk said: No, I'm simply saying he didn't inherit a dumpster fire and with a few simple moves that lots of posters suggested we could have had a much better team in 2018 and been further down the road. Gruden decided to totally rebuild the team. The moves that Gruden made with the team don't count in terms of what he inherited. What he inherited was an offense that featured 3 players that are still currently starting for other teams. And a defense that was one of the worst in the league that also featured 3 players that are still starting caliber players. So if he blew the roster up then what happened to all of the talented players we let go? Because they're not currently making an impact for other NFL teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dessie Posted September 9, 2020 Share Posted September 9, 2020 9 hours ago, Darbsk said: No, I'm simply saying he didn't inherit a dumpster fire and with a few simple moves that lots of posters suggested we could have had a much better team in 2018 and been further down the road. Gruden decided to totally rebuild the team. Exactly, if anything was a dumpster fire it was what Mayock walked into after Grudens demolition of the roster. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted September 9, 2020 Author Share Posted September 9, 2020 12 minutes ago, Dessie said: Exactly, if anything was a dumpster fire it was what Mayock walked into after Grudens demolition of the roster. What pieces did Gruden inherit that he gave up though? Other than Cooper and Mack? We lost who? Bruce Irvin? Donald Penn? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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