A LOOK AT A POST QUINTRICIA LIONS

[Karnage84]

I am not using this as a platform to advocate for a coaching change (at this point). However, Patricia is definitely on the hot seat. We are likely going to be staring a potential coaching change in the face until he strings some quality wins together. This is just to get an idea of what things could look like and who are some of the names to keep an eye on over the next several weeks. 

HC: ERIC BIENIEMY

The #1 candidate at this point is Kansas City Chiefs OC Eric Bieniemy. It was somewhat of a surprise that he wasn't hired last year and barring anything unforeseen, he should be a hot commodity this year. If Patricia is fired, a key question is going to be what do the Lions do with Quinn. If Sheila Ford Hamp is of the belief that the issues stemmed more from coaching than talent acquisition, Quinn might get another shot at picking out a HC.

Bieniemy has been around for a while.

Minnesota Vikings RB Coach (2006 - 2010): He was the Vikings' Running Backs coach when Adrian Peterson was drafted and then tearing up the league. If Peterson was able to defeat Father Time and have another productive season, he could be a nice piece for a transition to this new offensive scheme

Kansas City RB Coach (2013 - 2017)/OC (2018 - 2020): We really don't have to talk a lot about the KC Chiefs offense. It is an explosive, modern day offense. 

2013 and 2014 - Jamaal Charles (Pro Bowler)

2017 - Kareem Hunt (ROY, led league in rushing)

 

Patricia and Quinn have brought NE style schemes to Detroit with very specific requirements for players. If Bieniemy is the hire, there is a big question on "what do we do with all of the players on the defensive side?". The answer to this question just might be: KC Chiefs Run Game Coordinator/Defensive Line Coach Brendan Daly. 

 

DC: BRENDAN DALY

Bieniemy and Daly have crossed paths at a number of spots (in bold)

• Minnesota Vikings Asst. DL Coach 2006 - 2008 (EB)
• St. Louis Rams DL Coach 2009 - 2011
• Minnesota Vikings DL Coach 2012 - 2013
• New England Patriots Def. Asst 2014 (BQ)
• New England Patriots DL Coach 2015 - 2018 (BQ)
• Kansas City Chiefs Run Game Coordinator/Defensive Line Coach 2019 - 2020 (EB)

Daly does have a background at a few different spots but he did spend 5 seasons in the New England organization and crossed paths with Quinn during that time. Adding someone like Daly could help our transition by allowing us to still use some of the talented but scheme specific players Patricia has brought in and possibly allow EB to hit the ground running. It would also allow Quinn to draft players for a scheme he is familiar with, which should help with his success in drafting and filling holes. As a coach with an extensive background as a DL coach, we should be looking at an emphasis on fixing the defensive line and using that as an anchor to fix our defensive woes. 

 

 

 

[Nnivolcm]

3 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

If Bieniemy is the hire, there is a big question on "what do we do with all of the players on the defensive side?".

Interesting thread. The point I'd like to address is how many defensive players Quintricia has brought in are we stuck with. I imagine Flowers contract will probably be pretty hard to get out of, but would a complete overhaul on the defensive side be out of the question? Usually a complete overhaul means a short term step back, but our defense is so bad that might not be the case. 

[Karnage84]

3 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Interesting thread. The point I'd like to address is how many defensive players Quintricia has brought in are we stuck with. I imagine Flowers contract will probably be pretty hard to get out of, but would a complete overhaul on the defensive side be out of the question? Usually a complete overhaul means a short term step back, but our defense is so bad that might not be the case. 

Id like to explore that using Spotrac and Overthecap. However, just on the surface we would have to address the defensive line and linebacker corp in a big way. Its tough to do a complete overhaul in one offseason. There will be some difficult contracts too. 

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

Id like to explore that using Spotrac and Overthecap. However, just on the surface we would have to address the defensive line and linebacker corp in a big way. Its tough to do a complete overhaul in one offseason. There will be some difficult contracts too. 

Many of us have been wanting the front 7 addressed for years.

[Karnage84]

10 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Many of us have been wanting the front 7 addressed for years.

According to the reports, so did Patricia.

[Sllim Pickens]

15 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Interesting thread. The point I'd like to address is how many defensive players Quintricia has brought in are we stuck with. I imagine Flowers contract will probably be pretty hard to get out of, but would a complete overhaul on the defensive side be out of the question? Usually a complete overhaul means a short term step back, but our defense is so bad that might not be the case. 

I feel like Flowers has some talent and can be used properly in more than just NE's scheme, but may not be worth his contract.  And I agree about an overhaul.  I think we can get out of Coleman's deal and Trufant is short term.  Davis is gone after this year and our 2nd rd reach from last year still isnt doing anything to get on the field over Davis so I wouldn't count on him.  The low level DL signings this year were cheap and for 1 or 2 years.  Our S's are weak but on rookie deals or cheap deals that can be moved.  I truly dont mind our CBs though and if we had a decent pass rush we could be solid there.  

[Karnage84]

In the event of a change at the top, there will be a shuffling of the deck with players and their impact on the cap. The defensive line and the linebacking corp have been our two biggest issues. Here are the starters, 2020 cap hit and the potential consequences of likely moves (trade and/or cut) in 2020 or 2021. 

 

DEFENSIVE LINE (According to Ourlads.com)

LDE - Trey Flowers - $16, 739,000 Cap Hit ($22M Dead Money if traded)

LDT - Danny Shelton - $2,750,000 Cap Hit - 2020; ($1,250,000 Dead Money if cut in 2021) > Opens $4,700,000 in cap space

RDT - Nicholas Williams - $4,300,000 Cap Hit - 2020; ($1,000,000 Dead Money if cut in 2021) > Opens $4,000,000 in cap space

RDE - Da'Shawn Hand - $920,491 Cap Hit

 

There is a lot of room for improvement on the defensive side, especially on the defensive line. If the team wants to retool this defensive line they can open up nearly $9M in cap room by cutting Shelton and Williams. 

LINEBACKERS (According to Ourlads.com)

OLB - Christian Jones - $2,339,596 Cap Hit in 2020; ($2,185,442 Dead Cap if cut/traded in 2021)> Opens $2,557,278 in cap space

MLB - Jarrad Davis - $3,490,270 Cap Hit in 2020; Free Agent in 2021 ($1,529,440 Dead Cap if traded in 2020)

SLB - Jamie Collins - $6,333,333 Cap Hit in 2020; ($7M in Dead Cap if traded) > -$666,667 reduction in cap space if traded. > Would open up $11M in cap space in 2021

Based on play and cap consequences, Jarrad Davis is likely going to remain a Lion until the end of this season. Same goes for Christian Jones. Jamie Collins could be a trade piece if teams see this is as more of a Lions issue than a Collins issue. 

[Karnage84]

15 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

Interesting thread. The point I'd like to address is how many defensive players Quintricia has brought in are we stuck with. I imagine Flowers contract will probably be pretty hard to get out of, but would a complete overhaul on the defensive side be out of the question? Usually a complete overhaul means a short term step back, but our defense is so bad that might not be the case. 

Just did a bit of a breakdown of our starters in the front seven. Flowers would be a challenge but a wholesale change on the other spots of the defensive line seems fairly easy financially. Jarrad Davis is likely to see out the end of this year as a Lion. Jamie Collins is the biggest question mark with his contract and play. 

[Sllim Pickens]

1 minute ago, Karnage84 said:

Just did a bit of a breakdown of our starters in the front seven. Flowers would be a challenge but a wholesale change on the other spots of the defensive line seems fairly easy financially. Jarrad Davis is likely to see out the end of this year as a Lion. Jamie Collins is the biggest question mark with his contract and play. 

I think that speaks to the levels he ignored those positions.  We are full of late round picks and journeyman on the D line.  No investments there other than Flowers prior to the 4th round of the draft.  It has been neglected too long.  We arent NE and dont have BBs mind to be able to manipulate the D to exploit the strength of a player and hide their weaknesses. 

[LionArkie]

3 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think that speaks to the levels he ignored those positions.  We are full of late round picks and journeyman on the D line.  No investments there other than Flowers prior to the 4th round of the draft.  It has been neglected too long.  We arent NE and dont have BBs mind to be able to manipulate the D to exploit the strength of a player and hide their weaknesses. 

I was just thinking how much better the defense looked when we traded Tate for Snacks.  You think it would be pretty obvious the NE defense needs someone to control the middle.  Give me my Wilfork for crying out loud!

Edited September 24, 2020 by LionArkie

[Karnage84]

1 minute ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I think that speaks to the levels he ignored those positions.  We are full of late round picks and journeyman on the D line.  No investments there other than Flowers prior to the 4th round of the draft.  It has been neglected too long.  We arent NE and dont have BBs mind to be able to manipulate the D to exploit the strength of a player and hide their weaknesses. 

It does speak to their back to front philosophy with little investment other than Flowers in the defensive line. It is counter to traditional defensive philosophy. The B2F scheme does have some support in analytics but it hasn't worked and if you are going to go against the grain it better work or else you will look even more foolish. 

[Karnage84]

1 hour ago, Sllim Pickens said:

I feel like Flowers has some talent and can be used properly in more than just NE's scheme, but may not be worth his contract.  And I agree about an overhaul.  I think we can get out of Coleman's deal and Trufant is short term.  Davis is gone after this year and our 2nd rd reach from last year still isnt doing anything to get on the field over Davis so I wouldn't count on him.  The low level DL signings this year were cheap and for 1 or 2 years.  Our S's are weak but on rookie deals or cheap deals that can be moved.  I truly dont mind our CBs though and if we had a decent pass rush we could be solid there.  

Coleman has an $11M (wtf?) cap hit in 2021 with $6M in dead cap and $4M in new cap space if he is cut/traded. Coleman might be more of a restructure candidate. 

Quinn has generally done a good job at structuring contracts. Justin Coleman and Jesse James seem to be the two big errors on both player evaluation and contract structuring. 

[Sllim Pickens]

2 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

I was just thinking how much better the defense looked when we traded Tate for Snacks.  You think it would be pretty obvious the NE defense needs someone to control the middle.  Give me my Wilfork for crying out loud!

Yeah but those NE D's that were dominant had Wilfork but also had great LB play in Vrabel, Bruschi, Mayo, etc And other solid D lineman like Richard Seymour.  But again the one constant in all of their defensive success is BB, and his ability to exploit a players strengths.   

 

15 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

It does speak to their back to front philosophy with little investment other than Flowers in the defensive line. It is counter to traditional defensive philosophy. The B2F scheme does have some support in analytics but it hasn't worked and if you are going to go against the grain it better work or else you will look even more foolish. 

But our back is bad too.  We have solid CBs but would have been very good had we not push Slay out.  And our S's are also not expensive or high round picks.  Our team has a bunch of underachieving 1st and 2nd rounds and then a bunch of 3rd-7th rounders playig about as they should, with minor exceptions with Golladay.  

[LionArkie]

31 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Yeah but those NE D's that were dominant had Wilfork but also had great LB play in Vrabel, Bruschi, Mayo, etc And other solid D lineman like Richard Seymour.  But again the one constant in all of their defensive success is BB, and his ability to exploit a players strengths.    

Yeah, I'm always interested in the chicken or egg philosophy. I don't deny they had great LB play, but was that because their DL kept them clean?  No one is going to claim BB wasn't the main reason for NE success, but my point is a strong DL improves the rest of the defense so much more. We saw that for 1/2 of one season when we had Snacks and the reason why some had such high hopes for season 2. When Snacks stopped performing, so did this defense. Give me a strong anchor in the middle of this D and I think the Lions defense looks much better. Give me an anchor who can penetrate and I think we start generating a lot more turnovers.

Edited September 24, 2020 by LionArkie

[Karnage84]

36 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Yeah, I'm always interested in the chicken or egg philosophy. I don't deny they had great LB play, but was that because their DL kept them clean?  No one is going to claim BB wasn't the main reason for NE success, but my point is a strong DL improves the rest of the defense so much more. We saw that for 1/2 of one season when we had Snacks and the reason why some had such high hopes for season 2. When Snacks stopped performing, so did this defense. Give me a strong anchor in the middle of this D and I think the Lions defense looks much better. Give me an anchor who can penetrate and I think we start generating a lot more turnovers.

We did definitely see that difference when we had a stout run stuffer in the middle of that defensive line. Trading for Snacks was a great move by Quinn. A part of last years woes was the fact that the team was relying on getting the dominant 2018 Snacks for a full season as opposed to the disappointment of 2019 Snacks.