A LOOK AT A POST QUINTRICIA LIONS

[LionArkie]

6 hours ago, Nnivolcm said:

 

It's always going to be tough to win big games when you're hamstrung with a poor roster.

I thought most of this board were wrong in wanting Caldwell fired and I think the gift of hindsight has shown just that. 

So, if at best Caldwell would be a wildcard playoff team and never a strong contender for a super bowl, would you have wanted him to stay in Detroit?

Also, did you want Mayhew to stay or go?

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, LionArkie said:

So, if at best Caldwell would be a wildcard playoff team and never a strong contender for a super bowl, would you have wanted him to stay in Detroit?

Also, did you want Mayhew to stay or go?

I didn't say that?

I wish we had the opportunity to see what Caldwell could have done in Detroit with a competitive roster. I do think we got screwed out of a playoff win while Caldwell was here against the Cowboys. 

I was upset with Mayhew's bungling of the cap that led to Suh being able to leave, neutering our defense. I wasn't sad to see him go, but BQ has clearly been a step down imo.

[LionArkie]

44 minutes ago, Nnivolcm said:

I didn't say that?

I wish we had the opportunity to see what Caldwell could have done in Detroit with a competitive roster. I do think we got screwed out of a playoff win while Caldwell was here against the Cowboys. 

I was upset with Mayhew's bungling of the cap that led to Suh being able to leave, neutering our defense. I wasn't sad to see him go, but BQ has clearly been a step down imo.

I wasn't suggesting you did.  I was just trying to see your position. I was curious if you were fine with a wild card coach for the chance to make the super bowl, although unlikely to be able to win the big one. Was the chance to make it to the sb by being in the playoffs enough?

I liked Fontes. I hated to see him go as we had a chance with him and he did make it to the NFC championships. But he was never going to win the Super Bowl. So I understood his firing. I too wanted Caldwell gone for this very reason.  However, if you would have told me up front my choices were Caldwell and Mayhew or anyone from NE not named Belichick, I would have kept Caldwell and Mayhew.

Caldwell has proven he can win in the playoffs with the best team in the league. I was wondering if his past playoff wins in Indy, coupled with being a wild card team in Detroit would be enough for you to keep him around?

But I do believe you somewhat answered it in your response.

Edited October 14, 2020 by LionArkie

[diehardlionfan]

9 hours ago, LionArkie said:

So, if at best Caldwell would be a wildcard playoff team and never a strong contender for a super bowl, would you have wanted him to stay in Detroit?

Also, did you want Mayhew to stay or go?

If the team under Caldwell was a perennial wild card team I would be looking for a new GM.

Quinn fired Caldwell stating the team needed better results. He also claimed the team was close.

Quinn the rookie GM who has never been involved in or had experience in hiring a coach eliminated player input and the entire search was done by him and Wolfe who represented ownership. They briefed ownership but they had no direct involvement.

He then interviewed Cooter which was a formality only. He had no chance at the job.

They interviewed Vrable, Patricia, Shurmer, Austin (no chance),  Winston Moss (why was he on the list). They had an interview to set up with Wilks but he declined eventually because by that time it was obvious Patricia was the guy. 

I bought what Quinn was selling and supported the Caldwell move. It’s become pretty obvious Quinn’s lack of experience in critical areas has harmed the team. He really only considered three candidates one of which was a long shot as he had indicated early he wanted a defensive minded HC.

What if Caldwell was retained and Quinn fired?

 

[Karnage84]

18 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

If the team under Caldwell was a perennial wild card team I would be looking for a new GM.

Quinn fired Caldwell stating the team needed better results. He also claimed the team was close.

Quinn the rookie GM who has never been involved in or had experience in hiring a coach eliminated player input and the entire search was done by him and Wolfe who represented ownership. They briefed ownership but they had no direct involvement.

He then interviewed Cooter which was a formality only. He had no chance at the job.

They interviewed Vrable, Patricia, Shurmer, Austin (no chance),  Winston Moss (why was he on the list). They had an interview to set up with Wilks but he declined eventually because by that time it was obvious Patricia was the guy. 

I bought what Quinn was selling and supported the Caldwell move. It’s become pretty obvious Quinn’s lack of experience in critical areas has harmed the team. He really only considered three candidates one of which was a long shot as he had indicated early he wanted a defensive minded HC.

What if Caldwell was retained and Quinn fired?

 

We had four years of Caldwell with two different GM's. What would have changed if Caldwell was retained instead of Quinn?

Edited October 14, 2020 by Karnage84

[LionArkie]

1 hour ago, diehardlionfan said:

If the team under Caldwell was a perennial wild card team I would be looking for a new GM.

Quinn fired Caldwell stating the team needed better results. He also claimed the team was close.

Quinn the rookie GM who has never been involved in or had experience in hiring a coach eliminated player input and the entire search was done by him and Wolfe who represented ownership. They briefed ownership but they had no direct involvement.

He then interviewed Cooter which was a formality only. He had no chance at the job.

They interviewed Vrable, Patricia, Shurmer, Austin (no chance),  Winston Moss (why was he on the list). They had an interview to set up with Wilks but he declined eventually because by that time it was obvious Patricia was the guy. 

I bought what Quinn was selling and supported the Caldwell move. It’s become pretty obvious Quinn’s lack of experience in critical areas has harmed the team. He really only considered three candidates one of which was a long shot as he had indicated early he wanted a defensive minded HC.

What if Caldwell was retained and Quinn fired?

 

Not trying to side step and will gladly answer once I understand what you are asking. Is the question,  "What if Caldwell was retained through Mayhew and lasted the duration of the BQ administration and was still a losing coach similar to Patricia?".

Or is the question what if he was a wild card coach through two GM's and never went beyond that? I would still say he needs to be let go as I would not be sure if the issue was the GM or the coaches. And since he didn't get it done with two GM's I wouldn't entrust him with a third. In that sense, I would wonder why BQ never hired his own coach.

Is there a different scenario I'm not seeing?

****Edit****
I think I understand what you're asking now.  If in the end of 2017, BQ was fired and Caldwell was kept. Assuming I don't have hindsight to assist me, I would have been opposed to BQ firing as I would wonder what sensible GM worth a darn would want to come here. I would still be for the firing of Caldwell as I just don't want to be a wild card team.
If I can use hindsight, I stated earlier I would have rather had Mayhew and Caldwell than BQ and MP. However, in almost every scenario I believe a failed tenure by a team which leads to a GM change, then the GM should be hiring a new HC once he takes the job.

Edited October 14, 2020 by LionArkie

[diehardlionfan]

13 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Not trying to side step and will gladly answer once I understand what you are asking. Is the question,  "What if Caldwell was retained through Mayhew and lasted the duration of the BQ administration and was still a losing coach similar to Patricia?".

Or is the question what if he was a wild card coach through two GM's and never went beyond that? I would still say he needs to be let go as I would not be sure if the issue was the GM or the coaches. And since he didn't get it done with two GM's I wouldn't entrust him with a third. In that sense, I would wonder why BQ never hired his own coach.

Is there a different scenario I'm not seeing?

I’m just throwing it out there for speculation. What if Quinn was fired, Caldwell retained and was provided another roster by a new GM? The company line is he couldn’t get the team to the next level. At this point it’s Quinn who has failed in getting a roster that can improve the team. So, was Caldwell really a problem? Or, is Quinn to inexperienced at evaluating coaches? To ineffective at player evaluation? 

Just trying to generate discussion. Obviously in the real world, a new GM isn’t getting fired before the coach. However in hindsight the winningest Lions coach in decades gets fired by a GM that has been totally unsuccessful. 
 

 

[LionArkie]

19 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

I’m just throwing it out there for speculation. What if Quinn was fired, Caldwell retained and was provided another roster by a new GM? The company line is he couldn’t get the team to the next level. At this point it’s Quinn who has failed in getting a roster that can improve the team. So, was Caldwell really a problem? Or, is Quinn to inexperienced at evaluating coaches? To ineffective at player evaluation? 

Just trying to generate discussion. Obviously in the real world, a new GM isn’t getting fired before the coach. However in hindsight the winningest Lions coach in decades gets fired by a GM that has been totally unsuccessful. 
 

 

Ok, using hindsight I believe BQ would have given Caldwell a failed roster. Even more so than what Caldwell had with Mayhew.  When BQ made the statement he was only familiar with scouting NE type players for that particular system, I knew we were in trouble. If we retained Caldwell and if he was given a very successful roster on par with KC, Baltimore or name your top tier team, I do not think he wins the Superbowl. Let's take it one step further. If you put Caldwell in place of Andy Reid in KC, then KC does not have a super bowl win last year. If Tony Dungy is the coach of Indianapolis going against Sean Payton, Indy has another Superbowl to showcase.  I believe Caldwell to be a completely average coach. A players coach for sure, and a fantastic human being, but not a great coach.
If the Lions would have retained Caldwell and fired only BQ, I would have the same avatar as nnivolcm.

Edited October 14, 2020 by LionArkie

[diehardlionfan]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

We had four years of Caldwell with two different GM's. What would have changed if Caldwell was retained instead of Quinn?

Who knows? The Lions have had three GM’s in a row who lacked experience. Having an experienced GM might’ve provided a more complete roster with better talent. 

Hindsight is 20/20 but it’s pretty obvious Caldwell was the least of the Lions problems. It’s pretty obvious Quinn isn’t the evaluator he thinks he is. He’s depleted talent on the roster and totally failed in his coach selection. Regardless of the next few weeks which are a scheduling gift, the Lions haven’t advanced as an organization under Quinn, still can’t beat teams with winning records and have regressed each year since the Caldwell firing. 

Caldwell isn’t a great coach. However he was a stabilizing factor and achieved far more success than Patricia. It’s all moot anyway but just provides another avenue to look at things from.

Bottom line to me is the Lions are a mess.

[Karnage84]

10 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Ok, using hindsight I believe BQ would have given Caldwell a failed roster. Even more so than what Caldwell had with Mayhew.  When BQ made the statement he was only familiar with scouting NE type players for that particular system, I knew we were in trouble. If we retained Caldwell and if he was given a very successful roster on par with KC, Baltimore or name your top tier team, I do not think he wins the Superbowl. Let's take it one step further. If you put Caldwell in place of Andy Reid in KC, then KC does not have a super bowl win last year. If Tony Dungy is the coach of Indianapolis going against Sean Payton, Indy has another Superbowl to showcase.  I believe Caldwell to be a completely average coach. A players coach for sure, and a fantastic human being, but not a great coach.
If the Lions would have retained Caldwell and fired only BQ, I would have the same avatar as nnivolcm.

Which is a long way to go to say that we would wind up in nearly the exact same situation as we are now: a non-playoff/SB contender that is likely to go through another GM search and HC change. Caldwell wasn't going to get it done. Patricia was an attempt to step forward in the right direction. It didn't work and now we're pretty much in the same position that we would have been if Caldwell had been retained. 

[diehardlionfan]

14 minutes ago, LionArkie said:

Ok, using hindsight I believe BQ would have given Caldwell a failed roster. Even more so than what Caldwell had with Mayhew.  When BQ made the statement he was only familiar with scouting NE type players for that particular system, I knew we were in trouble. If we retained Caldwell and if he was given a very successful roster on par with KC, Baltimore, or name your top tier team, I do not think he wins the Superbowl. Let's take it one step further. If you put Caldwell in place of Andy Reid in KC, then KC does not have a super bowl win last year. If Tony Dungy is the coach of Indianapolis going against Sean Payton, Indy has another Superbowl to showcase.  I believe Caldwell to be a completely average coach. A players coach for sure, and a fantastic human being, but not a great coach.
If the Lions would have retained Caldwell and fired only BQ, I would have the same avatar as nnivolcm.

I agree with you about KC. I also don’t think Caldwell was a great coach. He was however better than what was here before and after him. He would’ve been a much better place holder than Patricia.

[Nnivolcm]

9 hours ago, LionArkie said:

I wasn't suggesting you did.  I was just trying to see your position. I was curious if you were fine with a wild card coach for the chance to make the super bowl, although unlikely to be able to win the big one. Was the chance to make it to the sb by being in the playoffs enough?

I liked Fontes. I hated to see him go as we had a chance with him and he did make it to the NFC championships. But he was never going to win the Super Bowl. So I understood his firing. I too wanted Caldwell gone for this very reason.  However, if you would have told me up front my choices were Caldwell and Mayhew or anyone from NE not named Belichick, I would have kept Caldwell and Mayhew.

Caldwell has proven he can win in the playoffs with the best team in the league. I was wondering if his past playoff wins in Indy, coupled with being a wild card team in Detroit would be enough for you to keep him around?

But I do believe you somewhat answered it in your response.

I think Caldwell was a good enough coach here to compete for championships if he had a better roster. I think BQ was looking for any excuse possible to get rid of him and to bring his guy in as HC so Caldwell got a lot of undeserved blame. 

[Nnivolcm]

1 hour ago, Karnage84 said:

We had four years of Caldwell with two different GM's. What would have changed if Caldwell was retained instead of Quinn?

A better HC than we have now probably having a better roster than we do now.

[diehardlionfan]

7 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Which is a long way to go to say that we would wind up in nearly the exact same situation as we are now: a non-playoff/SB contender that is likely to go through another GM search and HC change. Caldwell wasn't going to get it done. Patricia was an attempt to step forward in the right direction. It didn't work and now we're pretty much in the same position that we would have been if Caldwell had been retained. 

I see absolutely no way to verify the team would’ve been in the same place. Patricia was a gamble that has failed. Caldwell assisting Quinn in free agency and the draft would’ve resulted in a different roster. I don’t think there’s any way the Lions regress as much with Caldwell in the picture. Suggesting such discredits what positives Caldwell accomplished in Detroit and suggests Patricia is a better coach than results indicate. 

The Lions brain trust put a rookie GM in charge of selecting a head coach. A process he’s never been involved in prior. So, ownership assigns Wolfe to assist. Two people, no input from players, or ownership. Simple briefings to the owners. Then you look at who interviewed and it’s obvious Quinn wanted his guy. It was no secret Quinn wanted Patricia from the start. 

I don’t even mind that he wanted his guy. However, he was wrong and should be held accountable. 

[LionArkie]

6 minutes ago, diehardlionfan said:

I see absolutely no way to verify the team would’ve been in the same place. Patricia was a gamble that has failed. Caldwell assisting Quinn in free agency and the draft would’ve resulted in a different roster. I don’t think there’s any way the Lions regress as much with Caldwell in the picture. Suggesting such discredits what positives Caldwell accomplished in Detroit and suggests Patricia is a better coach than results indicate. 

The Lions brain trust put a rookie GM in charge of selecting a head coach. A process he’s never been involved in prior. So, ownership assigns Wolfe to assist. Two people, no input from players, or ownership. Simple briefings to the owners. Then you look at who interviewed and it’s obvious Quinn wanted his guy. It was no secret Quinn wanted Patricia from the start. 

I don’t even mind that he wanted his guy. However, he was wrong and should be held accountable. 

One thing I think worth exploring is if BQ gave Caldwell a worse roster, isn't it also plausible MP received a very poor roster and may not be as bad as advertised? Don't get me wrong, I didn't suddenly become a MP apologist, but doesn't the logic work the same?  We see when BQ got Snacks, a vastly different defense for MP occurred. I don't remember the rank, but wasn't it top 10? BQ has failed to build the defensive line and that has killed the Lions. Do we really think Caldwell would do better with this same defense?

Edited October 14, 2020 by LionArkie