Frank Gore: HOFer?

[Oregon Ducks]

No way. Curtis Martin and Emmitt Smith tier. Hall of Very Good.

[Forge]

19 minutes ago, Oregon Ducks said:

No way. Curtis Martin and Emmitt Smith tier. Hall of Very Good.

Both of whom are in the hall of fame...????

Kinda confused 

[Oregon Ducks]

2 minutes ago, Forge said:

Both of whom are in the hall of fame...????

Kinda confused 

Not in my Hall of Fame. <_<

[LaserFocus]

19 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

Wait, what? You know there were quality blockers at the WR position way before Hines Ward was around right? Pretty sure Ward didn't have some secret technique(s) that the zillions of players before 1998 never figured out. Don't let the media propaganda over the years fool you about Ward. Great blocker yes, but not revolutionary. 

Ward played on a better team, but that should be irrelevant as a skill position player. If Gore is on the Steelers, and Ward isn't I don't think it's unfathomable that they don't have at least one Lombardi. 

True Gore didn't change the game as a running back. Neither did a lot of HOF players though. Gore ran, blocked, and was a quality receiver though. He did everything pretty well. 

No, winning should never be irrelevant when talking about HOF candidates, this has been proven many times over in the selections. We can speculate about different players on different teams, but have to deal with reality. Frank Gore had a quality postseason run for the Niners the year they fell short in the SB. Hines Ward was strong in more postseason games than game, with a SB MVP to his credit. Another aspect to the HOF picks is how they did something different, or changed the game in some way. Again, many examples, to choose from. Warren Moon was somewhat of a surprise first ballot selection, but his success as an African-American QB was very helpful. And I never suggested other WRs weren't quality blockers before Hines Ward, but it's also undeniable he took the craft to a new level. It's not media propaganda, just the facts. During the decade of the 2000s, blocking at the WR position became a trait more noticed and Ward was a big reason for that. The highly respected NFL Films covered this issue in a profile of Ward, I'm surprised this is even a question.    

 

19 hours ago, Forge said:

Neither did Ward as a wide receiver. And Frank Gore did just fine in his post season career. Ward had some nice games, but nothing he did overall was considerably greater than what Gore did in his post season career. Ward just got more opportunities to play games. 

No, it's well chronicled Ward did something unusual, and took it to a new level, starting roughly in 2000. That was a while back, and I'm guessing some people questioning Ward's expertise in this area were teenagers or younger in the 2000-2008 time period. With all due respect, I think everyone's football knowledge grows as an adult. And Ward was definitely superior to Gore(and many current HOF receivers) when it came time to the postseason, the numbers don't lie. Super Bowl MVP, and played injured in SB43. The reason Ward played more postseason games was because of his key role in helping the Steelers qualify, that's what HOF players do. 

Changed the game, postseason excellence, all time leading receiver of a storied franchise, and let's not forget Ward didn't a HOF-quality QB throwing to him until later in his career. Also, Ward didn't have the advantage of playing in a dome, or warm weather for half his career.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

No, winning should never be irrelevant when talking about HOF candidates, this has been proven many times over in the selections. We can speculate about different players on different teams, but have to deal with reality. Frank Gore had a quality postseason run for the Niners the year they fell short in the SB. Hines Ward was strong in more postseason games than game, with a SB MVP to his credit. Another aspect to the HOF picks is how they did something different, or changed the game in some way. Again, many examples, to choose from. Warren Moon was somewhat of a surprise first ballot selection, but his success as an African-American QB was very helpful. And I never suggested other WRs weren't quality blockers before Hines Ward, but it's also undeniable he took the craft to a new level. It's not media propaganda, just the facts. During the decade of the 2000s, blocking at the WR position became a trait more noticed and Ward was a big reason for that. The highly respected NFL Films covered this issue in a profile of Ward, I'm surprised this is even a question. 

For a skill position player it should be. And it's been proven time and time again by the people in the HOF that it is. OJ never won anything, but he was a lock for the HOF. Same with Tomlinson. I can't remember a runningback or wide receiver having a stellar career and not getting in because they didn't win a ring and/or having that being something that was held against them to a large degree as to why they can't get in. I mean, Corey Dillion, Jamal Lewis, and Ricky Watters have rings. That hasn't helped them. Really, you can apply this to the defensive side of the ball too. Rings only seem to matter to media pundits with quarterbacks and coaches. That is it. 

Ward played on a better team and had more opportunities in the postseason. But Ward wasn't the catalyst for why they got there. I mean, no one walks about OJ Simpson and his lack of playoff success. Or Earl Caapbell. Or Lenny Moore. Or Gale Sayers and Floyd Little who never even played in the postseason. Because no one cares. Terrell Davis is probably the only that is talked about because every playoff game he played in he was lights out. 

Errrm yeah no Ward didn't take blocking to a new level. He was good at it, ok. But again, he wasn't revolutionary. Unless you'd like to explain how he took it to a "new level". 

Btw, Warren Moon doesn't get in if he has a career like James Harris. He was a stellar passer and arguably the best QB in the NFL at various points in his career. That is why he was in. If he was white he'd also be a first ballot inductee. Even if you are "different" or "change the game" in some fashion, you still have to have a lights out career. Or else my boy Craig would be in. 

Look, I love NFL Films, but they aren't infallible. A lot of their pieces are romanticized and they're contextualized for television. That doesn't necessarily mean they're lying about the content they put out, but a lot of the times it is romanticized, and not all sides of the coin are looked at. Just look at their NFL Yearbook series that comes out every season for every NFL team. The ones for the losing squads are always amusingly optimistic about the team moving forward. NFL Films shouldn't be used to prove a point though. Like ever. Blocking has always been an important aspect of the WR position long before Ward was around. Maybe the casual fan took more notice because of the media promoting Ward's skills a blocker, but really...that doesn't mean Ward was doing something that no one ever did before him. Or even better than everyone that came before him.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

Changed the game, postseason excellence, all time leading receiver of a storied franchise, and let's not forget Ward didn't a HOF-quality QB throwing to him until later in his career. Also, Ward didn't have the advantage of playing in a dome, or warm weather for half his career.

And was never a first team All Pro, never led the NFL in any major receiving category, or had a year where he was clearly the best WR in the NFL. 

Ward, like Gore should have an uphill battle for the HOF. Would probably put him in the same boat as Jimmy Smith or Rod Smith as far as receivers and their legacy are concerned. Or Donald Driver. Or Amani Toomer. Or Derrick Mason. And Ward wasn't necessarily better than those guys to me. I know he wasn't better than Owens, Holt, Moss, Wayne, Harrison, or Bruce overall.

[J-ALL-DAY]

On 10/8/2017 at 7:17 PM, Danger said:

He averaged more than 4.3 YPC 3 times in his entire career (1 of those was 2006)

He just got fed. A lot. He only scored 10 TD, 1 time in his career. He was a workhorse, but he wasn't a standout.

 

A hall of famer should be considered far and away one of the top at their position for at least a 4-6 year stretch.

He's  been over 4.3 YPC four times in his career, the same amount as Ladanian Tomlinson. His career YPC is also comparable to the likes of Tomlinson, Smith, Payton, Campbell etc. In 10 years with the 49ers, he had a YPC of 4.5 which is pretty damn good for that amount of time. If you don't think he was a HOF caliber player, then fine. But the YPC is pretty garbage considering he is better or on par with some of the best RBs of all time.

[Danger]

31 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

He's  been over 4.3 YPC four times in his career, the same amount as Ladanian Tomlinson. His career YPC is also comparable to the likes of Tomlinson, Smith, Payton, Campbell etc. In 10 years with the 49ers, he had a YPC of 4.5 which is pretty damn good for that amount of time. If you don't think he was a HOF caliber player, then fine. But the YPC is pretty garbage considering he is better or on par with some of the best RBs of all time.

He's played 2 more seasons than LT but yet he's had basically half as many touchdowns. 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

31 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

He's  been over 4.3 YPC four times in his career, the same amount as Ladanian Tomlinson. His career YPC is also comparable to the likes of Tomlinson, Smith, Payton, Campbell etc. In 10 years with the 49ers, he had a YPC of 4.5 which is pretty damn good for that amount of time. If you don't think he was a HOF caliber player, then fine. But the YPC is pretty garbage considering he is better or on par with some of the best RBs of all time.

That was such a cherry picked statistic he pulled out too. As if 4.3 is some universal standard. Why not 4.2? Why not 4.0? Gore has the same career YPC as Walter Payton did. Same as Tony Dorsett. He has a better YPC than Emmitt Smith did, even if you count just his Cowboy years.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

2 minutes ago, Danger said:

He's played 2 more seasons than LT but yet he's had basically half as many touchdowns. 

But he was talking about YPC. Not touchdowns. 

[Danger]

Just now, PapaShogun said:

But he was talking about YPC. Not touchdowns. 

He was comparing him to LT.

 

I've put it more straightforward earlier in the thread. Frank Gore wasn't seen as one of the best at his position really at all through out his career. 

 

Is Hines Ward a HoF'er to you?

[TecmoSuperJoe]

1 minute ago, Danger said:

He was comparing him to LT.

 

I've put it more straightforward earlier in the thread. Frank Gore wasn't seen as one of the best at his position really at all through out his career. 

 

Is Hines Ward a HoF'er to you?

Yes he was comparing him to Tomlinson in one aspect. Not all aspects. 

Nope, Hines isn't a HOF player. I don't think Gore is either. 

I will say I do disagree that he wasn't one of the best at his position during his career. He just was never the clear cut best in the NFL in any of his years. Just like Ward. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

43 minutes ago, Danger said:

He's played 2 more seasons than LT but yet he's had basically half as many touchdowns. 

I see, so now we're moving the goalposts. First it was he only had three years of 4.3 YPC or more (actually four), and now it is about the TDs. Again, if you don't think he is a HOF caliber player then that's fine. However, using that YPC argument was dumb.

Gore only has 134 less carries than LT and by the end of the season, he should be pretty close to that mark. And they will likely finish with the same YPC average for their careers. 

[Forge]

6 hours ago, LaserFocus said:

No, winning should never be irrelevant when talking about HOF candidates, this has been proven many times over in the selections. We can speculate about different players on different teams, but have to deal with reality. Frank Gore had a quality postseason run for the Niners the year they fell short in the SB. Hines Ward was strong in more postseason games than game, with a SB MVP to his credit. Another aspect to the HOF picks is how they did something different, or changed the game in some way. Again, many examples, to choose from. Warren Moon was somewhat of a surprise first ballot selection, but his success as an African-American QB was very helpful. And I never suggested other WRs weren't quality blockers before Hines Ward, but it's also undeniable he took the craft to a new level. It's not media propaganda, just the facts. During the decade of the 2000s, blocking at the WR position became a trait more noticed and Ward was a big reason for that. The highly respected NFL Films covered this issue in a profile of Ward, I'm surprised this is even a question.    

 

No, it's well chronicled Ward did something unusual, and took it to a new level, starting roughly in 2000. That was a while back, and I'm guessing some people questioning Ward's expertise in this area were teenagers or younger in the 2000-2008 time period. With all due respect, I think everyone's football knowledge grows as an adult. And Ward was definitely superior to Gore(and many current HOF receivers) when it came time to the postseason, the numbers don't lie. Super Bowl MVP, and played injured in SB43. The reason Ward played more postseason games was because of his key role in helping the Steelers qualify, that's what HOF players do. 

Changed the game, postseason excellence, all time leading receiver of a storied franchise, and let's not forget Ward didn't a HOF-quality QB throwing to him until later in his career. Also, Ward didn't have the advantage of playing in a dome, or warm weather for half his career.

LOL. This kind of tells me all I need to know. Was this an attempt to invalidate our point when you have no idea how old anyone is here with something that is not factually true in any regard? I've met plenty of old, stupid people. 

And yes, winning is basically irrelevant when talking about skill positions. Honestly, it's pretty irrelevant for quarterbacks, but I can understand that argument. Hines Ward was fortunate enough to be drafted by the Steelers, have incredible organizational stability and Big Ben as his quarterback for about half his career, along with a number of excellent players. They were super bowl contenders for large chunk of his career. Gore was drafted by a completely inept organization coming off a 2 win season, have a qb carousel of Alex Smith, Tim Rattay, Shaun Hill, JT O'sullivan, Ken Dorsey, Trent Dilfer, Colin Kaepernick, and let's not forget Chris Weinke. Seven offensive coordinators in  his first 7 years, I believe. The 49ers lack of winning had nothing to do with Gore. He didn't have his first winning season until 2011, and then only 3 years of it and that window closed shut because again, the incompetence of the organization. 

And you're right, numbers don't lie. Average yards per game in the playoffs- Ward? 67.33. Gore? 101.63. That's not even particularly close. Average touchdowns per game- Ward? 0.55 td/gm. Gore? 0.63 td/gm. I can play that game too. Ward was a solid player in the playoffs, sometimes very good and great.  But there was nothing special there outside of a game or two. He threw out some duds, just like most guys. 

And nobody is claiming that Ward wasn't a great blocker. He may be the best ever, though that's highly subjective. But he didn't revolutionize anything. And there have been plenty of great blocking wide receivers in history. Heck, Terrell Owens was a great blocking receiver. Larry Fitzgerald has long been a great blocker. It should also be noted that Frank Gore has been considered one of the best blocking running backs throughout his career. I'd love to hear the "facts" that surround Hines Ward revolutionizing the position for blocking, because right now all you've provided is NFL films...which sort of supports the media propaganda angle?  And blocking became more noticed ? Well, that just happened to coicide with a time that featured perhaps the biggest explosion in how media was delivered and received in history, superior footage, better quality footage, more angles, more "analysts" digesting information and breaking it down and talking about it, etc etc etc. 

As for your last paragraph. Changed the game? Not really. Great blocking receiver. He didn't "change" anything. Postseason Excellence? Yep, at some points, no doubt. But also, over the entire length of his career, it was mostly just pretty good, but nothing special. Let's not forget that he only had a HOF quarterback half his career. I can see how that would help his case and hinder Gore's given the amazing quarterback play he's had throughout his career. 

[swede700]

I wonder how we got on the discussion of Hines Ward.  Hines Ward is way down my list of potential HOF candidates.  He doesn't have a legitimate shot, because you have to grade him against his contemporaries, and he's far dwarfed by them.  TO, Randy Moss, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Isaac Bruce, Steve Smith, and Torry Holt could all be considered his contemporaries (you could also throw Andre Johnson in there as well) and they all far surpass him in most statistical categories. 

I don't believe you can legitimately make the comparison that Gore's situation is similar to Ward, because of the contemporary player angle.  Gore is far higher on the board of his contemporaries at RB than Ward is among his contemporaries at WR.  

You can see it even more clearly when you see the comparative players to each on their pro-football-reference page.  Ward is most comparable to Keenan McCardell, Harold Jackson and Anquan Boldin, none of whom are HOFers, while Gore is most comparable to Corey Dillon, Floyd Little and Jerome Bettis...2 out of 3 who are HOFers.