The Lions Den: The Anything Thread

[SimbaWho]

7 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

While I didn't go to MSU, I have adopted them as my college team of choice after having great experiences attending games on campus. Definitely was cheering for the Spartans.

With that being said, why do you think that Michigan has not been able to find success in finding a quality HC and instead has run through guys like Rich Rod, Hoke and Harbaugh. I have always viewed Michigan as a premier job but it just seems like they can't get the pieces at all levels to be a premier team. If money isn't the issue, what do you think it is?

Jim Harbaugh at the time was the home run hire. His problem is player and in game management. Idk if he's ever been comfortable with a QB. He's got a solid team, outside of last year has pretty much always had "solid" teams.

Biggest thing in a long time for Michigan is they don't have a guy at QB. I like Kade now but if you're him it's about time to sit in the room and tell the boys it's him or me. Even still, whens the last time you can look back and be real satisfied with Michigans QB, whoever the coach was/is outside of this season really. States been killing them at QB play for awhile. It's like Michigan has turned into Wisconsin yet fans think they have national championship shots.

2006-07? Chad Henne? Last good Michigan QB? Maybe Dennard Robinson if you thought he was exciting. Either way it's been a long time.

I mean if Michigan does the insane and beats Ohio State like, you can kind of forgive him for the State loss but idk, I haven't spoken with a lot of other fans but I think Harbaugh's a dead man walking unless he can upset Ohio State. Harbaughs done more than the last guys for sure. Michigan was real low there for a moment, and raising the bar to a Wisconsin level is some sort of an achievement from where they were but definitely wasn't the goal, so it and this is a bit underwhelming for fans/most people. 

[Karnage84]

41 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

Jim Harbaugh at the time was the home run hire. His problem is player and in game management. Idk if he's ever been comfortable with a QB. He's got a solid team, outside of last year has pretty much always had "solid" teams.

Biggest thing in a long time for Michigan is they don't have a guy at QB. I like Kade now but if you're him it's about time to sit in the room and tell the boys it's him or me. Even still, whens the last time you can look back and be real satisfied with Michigans QB, whoever the coach was/is outside of this season really. States been killing them at QB play for awhile. It's like Michigan has turned into Wisconsin yet fans think they have national championship shots.

2006-07? Chad Henne? Last good Michigan QB? Maybe Dennard Robinson if you thought he was exciting. Either way it's been a long time.

I mean if Michigan does the insane and beats Ohio State like, you can kind of forgive him for the State loss but idk, I haven't spoken with a lot of other fans but I think Harbaugh's a dead man walking unless he can upset Ohio State. Harbaughs done more than the last guys for sure. Michigan was real low there for a moment, and raising the bar to a Wisconsin level is some sort of an achievement from where they were but definitely wasn't the goal, so it and this is a bit underwhelming for fans/most people. 

Why can't Michigan hire a guy like Dabo Swinney away from a Clemson? Or find the "next one"? Is it just that the Michigan brand is kind of old school and/or outdated, so it is less appealing? Star kids just want to play in the SEC? 

It is true on Michigan QB's. I took a look and outside of Henne, the last guy who had any success was #10 himself - Mr. Gisele Bundchen. It seems odd that they can't recruit an elite level QB. 

Not that this is really a deep dive but looking at the 2022 prospect rankings, the state of Michigan's QB1 in the rankings (according to 247 Sports) is at #46 overall and he's going to Army. While in Ohio, their top QB is #2 overall in the rankings (he's a Penn State commit). Wisconsin has a kid at#8 who is committed in state to Wisconsin; Indiana has a kid at #5 (Tennessee commit); Pennsylvania at #13 (another Penn State commit). 

2022 - #46

2021 - #23

2020 - #37

2019 - #12 (Dequan Finn, Toledo)

2018 - #6 (Theo Day, MSU)

It seems like the state of Michigan can't develop a QB let alone the Wolverines.

[Sllim Pickens]

12 hours ago, SimbaWho said:

Jim Harbaugh at the time was the home run hire. His problem is player and in game management. Idk if he's ever been comfortable with a QB. He's got a solid team, outside of last year has pretty much always had "solid" teams.

Biggest thing in a long time for Michigan is they don't have a guy at QB. I like Kade now but if you're him it's about time to sit in the room and tell the boys it's him or me. Even still, whens the last time you can look back and be real satisfied with Michigans QB, whoever the coach was/is outside of this season really. States been killing them at QB play for awhile. It's like Michigan has turned into Wisconsin yet fans think they have national championship shots.

2006-07? Chad Henne? Last good Michigan QB? Maybe Dennard Robinson if you thought he was exciting. Either way it's been a long time.

I mean if Michigan does the insane and beats Ohio State like, you can kind of forgive him for the State loss but idk, I haven't spoken with a lot of other fans but I think Harbaugh's a dead man walking unless he can upset Ohio State. Harbaughs done more than the last guys for sure. Michigan was real low there for a moment, and raising the bar to a Wisconsin level is some sort of an achievement from where they were but definitely wasn't the goal, so it and this is a bit underwhelming for fans/most people. 

Brady Hoke did more at UM than Harbaugh has.  he at least finished 2nd in his division and went to the Sugar Bowl.  Harbaugh has never been higher than 3rd in the East.  TBH, that was Rich Rods team and they likely would have been better with RR but still, thats the best they have been since Carr.  But since Harbaugh was the savior, and the best hire they could have made, its scary to move in another direction and call it a failure. 

 

 

[Sllim Pickens]

11 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Why can't Michigan hire a guy like Dabo Swinney away from a Clemson? Or find the "next one"? Is it just that the Michigan brand is kind of old school and/or outdated, so it is less appealing? Star kids just want to play in the SEC? 

It is true on Michigan QB's. I took a look and outside of Henne, the last guy who had any success was #10 himself - Mr. Gisele Bundchen. It seems odd that they can't recruit an elite level QB. 

Not that this is really a deep dive but looking at the 2022 prospect rankings, the state of Michigan's QB1 in the rankings (according to 247 Sports) is at #46 overall and he's going to Army. While in Ohio, their top QB is #2 overall in the rankings (he's a Penn State commit). Wisconsin has a kid at#8 who is committed in state to Wisconsin; Indiana has a kid at #5 (Tennessee commit); Pennsylvania at #13 (another Penn State commit). 

2022 - #46

2021 - #23

2020 - #37

2019 - #12 (Dequan Finn, Toledo)

2018 - #6 (Theo Day, MSU)

It seems like the state of Michigan can't develop a QB let alone the Wolverines.

Tom Brady wasn't great at UM.  He was benched for Drew Henson for half of his senior year. 

UM has had a ton of top QB prospects there and couldn't do anything with them even if not from Michigan, which means to me that Harbaugh isn't the guy.  Shea patterson was the #4 player in the country out of highschool and #1 QB.  When he came from Ole Miss he just had an excellent year and then Harbaugh ruined him.  McCaffery was a top 5 QB and top 125 recruit.  Milton was a top 7 QB, Peters was a top 100 recruit and 6 QB, Cade McNamara was a top 7 QB in his class, McCarthy is a top 25 recruit and #5 Qb in his class.  Harbaugh has been awful at developing and finding QBs even when he has had elite talent there.  There is no reason he should keep getting passes but I am fine if he does.  

 

[Karnage84]

17 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Tom Brady wasn't great at UM.  He was benched for Drew Henson for half of his senior year. 

UM has had a ton of top QB prospects there and couldn't do anything with them even if not from Michigan, which means to me that Harbaugh isn't the guy.  Shea patterson was the #4 player in the country out of highschool and #1 QB.  When he came from Ole Miss he just had an excellent year and then Harbaugh ruined him.  McCaffery was a top 5 QB and top 125 recruit.  Milton was a top 7 QB, Peters was a top 100 recruit and 6 QB, Cade McNamara was a top 7 QB in his class, McCarthy is a top 25 recruit and #5 Qb in his class.  Harbaugh has been awful at developing and finding QBs even when he has had elite talent there.  There is no reason he should keep getting passes but I am fine if he does.  

 

I wasn't talking about playing at the college level - just guys that went on to have success in the league after leaving UM. There just isn't a strong track record for a historic, national brand. It's somewhat surprising, that's all. 

I was thinking more along the lines of players being developed in state. While I consider Michigan a national brand, I would assume that just about every kid from the state of Michigan that plays football would want to be the QB at Michigan if given the chance. It just seems like there isn't a ton of QB talent developed instate at a high level based on the rankings. 

Do you feel that Harbaugh's challenge at developing a QB is that he knows WHAT to do but not necessarily HOW to do it and better yet, how to communicate the WHAT and HOW to his young players? It's something that has been mentioned among some of the great players - Jordan, Gretzky, etc. have this insane natural talent. However, because things are so inherent to them they struggle to be able to explain it/coach to other people. They know what to do and why but not necessarily how - it just happens so naturally.  

[SimbaWho]

38 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

Tom Brady wasn't great at UM.  He was benched for Drew Henson for half of his senior year. 

UM has had a ton of top QB prospects there and couldn't do anything with them even if not from Michigan, which means to me that Harbaugh isn't the guy.  Shea patterson was the #4 player in the country out of highschool and #1 QB.  When he came from Ole Miss he just had an excellent year and then Harbaugh ruined him.  McCaffery was a top 5 QB and top 125 recruit.  Milton was a top 7 QB, Peters was a top 100 recruit and 6 QB, Cade McNamara was a top 7 QB in his class, McCarthy is a top 25 recruit and #5 Qb in his class.  Harbaugh has been awful at developing and finding QBs even when he has had elite talent there.  There is no reason he should keep getting passes but I am fine if he does.  

 

Yeah a lot of revisionist history here. He wasn't "Bench" he was splitting time much like we see currently happening and he took the full time gig after Henson went down big against Michigan State and Brady came in for the rest of the game almost giving them a huge come back, he then started the rest of the year as a senior with no splits. The year prior as a junior he was the full time starter. Henson was a huge recruit back then in multiple sports etc. Toms Michigan numbers are 60% completion, 30TDs/16INTs. No one is saying he's the king of college QB's but there hasn't been a QB like him since what Henne?

But as far as Harbaugh and the QB's I agree. McNamara had a really good game honestly, and to me it wasn't his fault Michigan lost. I haven't seen a QB room where Harbaugh makes it stronger, both Pro/college. He was blessed with Andrew Luck, but after that he's ruined every single QB he's actually come in contact with. Alex Smith, Colin Kap, all Michigan QB's both starters and backups. He's just really bad at developing a QB, imo, and really that was suppose to be his calling card. Idc who you are IDK how you throw the back up in again in a tie game late after he JUST fumbled the ball... RB's know better. Idk what Harbaugh/coordinators where thinking. Give Kudos to state, they did get two, 2 point conversions which is extremely tough to do.

Jim Harbaughs straight up doing a better job than any coach prior to Carr and it's really not too debatable unless you just like poking Michigan fans, which is fine. 18-14 in big ten play under Hoke isn't the best we seen since Carr... Hoke's had the best single season maybe, lighting in a bottle, but Idk if that's what you're saying(best season since Carr), but, A coach with a phantom season isn't the best coach since Carr.

Edited November 2, 2021 by SimbaWho

[Sllim Pickens]

35 minutes ago, SimbaWho said:

Yeah a lot of revisionist history here. He wasn't "Bench" he was splitting time much like we see currently happening and he took the full time gig after Henson went down big against Michigan State and Brady came in for the rest of the game almost giving them a huge come back, he then started the rest of the year as a senior with no splits. The year prior as a junior he was the full time starter. Henson was a huge recruit back then in multiple sports etc. Toms Michigan numbers are 60% completion, 30TDs/16INTs. No one is saying he's the king of college QB's but there hasn't been a QB like him since what Henne?

But as far as Harbaugh and the QB's I agree. McNamara had a really good game honestly, and to me it wasn't his fault Michigan lost. I haven't seen a QB room where Harbaugh makes it stronger, both Pro/college. He was blessed with Andrew Luck, but after that he's ruined every single QB he's actually come in contact with. Alex Smith, Colin Kap, all Michigan QB's both starters and backups. He's just really bad at developing a QB, imo, and really that was suppose to be his calling card. Idc who you are IDK how you throw the back up in again in a tie game late after he JUST fumbled the ball... RB's know better. Idk what Harbaugh/coordinators where thinking. Give Kudos to state, they did get two, 2 point conversions which is extremely tough to do.

Jim Harbaughs straight up doing a better job than any coach prior to Carr and it's really not too debatable unless you just like poking Michigan fans, which is fine. 18-14 in big ten play under Hoke isn't the best we seen since Carr... Hoke's had the best single season maybe, lighting in a bottle, but Idk if that's what you're saying(best season since Carr), but, A coach with a phantom season isn't the best coach since Carr.

My point was in 1 year about Hoke.  Harbaugh has never had a year with less than 3 losses.  He has never finished above 3rd in the Big 10 East.  He has won very little.  And what he has done is what got Carr fired down the stretch and that was at least splitting with OSU.  Harbaugh may be the best since Carr but Hoke has more accolades, even if it was just one season. 

[Sllim Pickens]

45 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

I wasn't talking about playing at the college level - just guys that went on to have success in the league after leaving UM. There just isn't a strong track record for a historic, national brand. It's somewhat surprising, that's all. 

I was thinking more along the lines of players being developed in state. While I consider Michigan a national brand, I would assume that just about every kid from the state of Michigan that plays football would want to be the QB at Michigan if given the chance. It just seems like there isn't a ton of QB talent developed instate at a high level based on the rankings. 

Do you feel that Harbaugh's challenge at developing a QB is that he knows WHAT to do but not necessarily HOW to do it and better yet, how to communicate the WHAT and HOW to his young players? It's something that has been mentioned among some of the great players - Jordan, Gretzky, etc. have this insane natural talent. However, because things are so inherent to them they struggle to be able to explain it/coach to other people. They know what to do and why but not necessarily how - it just happens so naturally.  

First part, there have not been a ton of good QBs from Michigan high schools.  Kirk Cousins is the last one that really developed into an NFL QB.  We also have had Drew Stanton and now Peyton Thorne as in state kids that look good.  Most of the QBs we have had and a lot of UMs have not come from this state though.  Connor Cook, Henne, Navarre, Denard, Lewerke, Hoyer, Smoker etc have not been from Michigan.  

As for Harbaugh, I am not sure of his struggles.  He did develop Luck who was likely a natural talent and he got the most out of Kap taking him to a Super Bowl.  But nobody else has seemed to do well with him.  I feel like at this point he is trying to fit a QB into exactly what he wants and not helping the QB utilize their strengths to the best of their abilities.  I thought McNamara had a great game against MSU and deserved to win other than the final int but he hasn't been given the green light to go make plays this year and keeps getting subbed in for the freshman.  Harbaugh just seems indecisive about his QBs and it ends up leading to chaos.  He should have just let McCarthy redshirt and let Cade be the guy and build confidence.  McCarthy played solid in that game too other than the dumb fumble. he also threw a TD pass so if you want to go with him, then just go with him and let Cade leave.  But make a decision, stick to it, and pump up that kids confidence.  It always seems there is a QB controversy at UM and its likely because they have too many able bodies and nobody truly separates themselves so you are always thinking, maybe the other guy can be the answer and that rarely is the case. 

[Karnage84]

43 minutes ago, Sllim Pickens said:

First part, there have not been a ton of good QBs from Michigan high schools.  Kirk Cousins is the last one that really developed into an NFL QB.  We also have had Drew Stanton and now Peyton Thorne as in state kids that look good.  Most of the QBs we have had and a lot of UMs have not come from this state though.  Connor Cook, Henne, Navarre, Denard, Lewerke, Hoyer, Smoker etc have not been from Michigan.  

As for Harbaugh, I am not sure of his struggles.  He did develop Luck who was likely a natural talent and he got the most out of Kap taking him to a Super Bowl.  But nobody else has seemed to do well with him.  I feel like at this point he is trying to fit a QB into exactly what he wants and not helping the QB utilize their strengths to the best of their abilities.  I thought McNamara had a great game against MSU and deserved to win other than the final int but he hasn't been given the green light to go make plays this year and keeps getting subbed in for the freshman.  Harbaugh just seems indecisive about his QBs and it ends up leading to chaos.  He should have just let McCarthy redshirt and let Cade be the guy and build confidence.  McCarthy played solid in that game too other than the dumb fumble. he also threw a TD pass so if you want to go with him, then just go with him and let Cade leave.  But make a decision, stick to it, and pump up that kids confidence.  It always seems there is a QB controversy at UM and its likely because they have too many able bodies and nobody truly separates themselves so you are always thinking, maybe the other guy can be the answer and that rarely is the case. 

Why do you think this is the case? 

[Lions017]

45 minutes ago, Karnage84 said:

Why do you think this is the case? 

I'd say the weather and just overall talent pool have a lot to do with it. Michigan just doesn't have as much talent as other states. States like Texas and California have a lot more ridiculous athletes at the skill positions and just have a much larger pool of talent to draw from. They have kids that spend their lives doing 7 on 7 and stuff like that. The state of Michigan is middle of the pack when it comes to recruiting talent. 

It gets cold in Michigan for the football season. The vast majority of high school teams use a run-heavy offense at least partially because you're going to end up playing in the cold, in the rain, in the snow, etc. Those Texas kids that do 7 on 7 and passing work all winter end up miles ahead of our kids because the Michigan kids just don't have the same reps or opportunities that the warm weather kids do. Even if you have a talented kid at QB, a lot of places don't really have anywhere for them to throw in the winter besides a high school gym, and even that's not big enough to work on everything. 

Frankly, where the players come from matters less now than it ever has. Michigan and even Michigan State are both big enough brands to recruit on a national level. You still want to own the local area, but it's far easier than ever before to reach those kids that are out of state. Alabama isn't the best because they get the best kids from Alabama, it's because they take their pick of the Alabama kids and also get the best kids from Texas, Florida, etc. 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Lions017

[diehardlionfan]

I just wanted to apologize to Simba. I didn’t need to be a cranky old poop and jump on him about the ROY award.

RedWings fans have every reason to be excited by the youth in their lineup and it was unfortunate I chose to………all over that excitement. The Wings have two top ROY candidates and the pre season favourite just go sent down to the AHL.

Simba, I’m sorry!!

DHLF

[SimbaWho]

12 hours ago, diehardlionfan said:

I just wanted to apologize to Simba. I didn’t need to be a cranky old poop and jump on him about the ROY award.

RedWings fans have every reason to be excited by the youth in their lineup and it was unfortunate I chose to………all over that excitement. The Wings have two top ROY candidates and the pre season favourite just go sent down to the AHL.

Simba, I’m sorry!!

DHLF

It's ok, you are totally entitled to say whatever you feel like to me. I accept your apology though it's unexpected and not needed. I never thought for a second it was ill will. Opinions are opinions and sometimes...well most times I think mine are the best of coarse so it's nice to have some wisdom around to tame me down from time to time.

You don't ever really need to apologize to me though for anything. We're just chatting, chatting since 07. Been a long, long time now. 

 

Edited November 3, 2021 by SimbaWho

[LionArkie]

I just don't get why getting a ride home in today's society is such a hard thing? Tragic, none-the-less.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/raiders-release-henry-ruggs-iii-040725189.html
 

[Sllim Pickens]

21 hours ago, Karnage84 said:

Why do you think this is the case? 

I feel like its the fact that there really aren't that many really good QBs in the country.  In each high school class there will be 7-10 guys who have a chance to even be a back up in the NFL.  Its not always the 5 star kids either (especially if they go to UM, J/K). There are probably 25-30 "good" college QBs each year and the rest are very much like Cade McNamera.  There aren't a ton of great QBs from NY, Illinois etc because there just arent that many good QBs in general.  There are more people on CA, FL, TX so the odds are just in their favor to produce more functional players at any position. Found this article interesting.  Seems like NC is the hot spot for QBs currently.  Would be cool if they did this for the top 500 over a 5/10 year period. I am guessing Michigan would have at least one by now with Peyton Thorne being a top 100 QB.  

https://www.si.com/college/2021/09/20/ncaa-football-top-100-quarterbacks-by-state

And another for NFL QBs

https://www.maxpreps.com/news/VscgGpQZX0mic5Zjbg85-Q/top-10-states-that-have-produced-the-greatest-nfl-quarterbacks.htm

[nagahide13]

11 hours ago, LionArkie said:

I just don't get why getting a ride home in today's society is such a hard thing? Tragic, none-the-less.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/raiders-release-henry-ruggs-iii-040725189.html
 

Eff that guy and RIP to the lady and her dog. Dude was going 157 in a residential with twice the legal BAAC. Toss him off a cliff for all I care.