So what happened to Doug Pederson?

[thebestever6]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

Illuminati

There was never gonna be a new norm fact is They gave Kelly too much power so the reacted by giving doug not enough.

[BayRaider]

I see a few in here claiming Wentz is the issue... Wentz has been bad and needs to work on quite a bit of things, but Doug is the main problem of the two 100%. He's simply not a good coach, at all. He rode the coattails of two of the best coordinators in the NFL by a wide margin, in Frank Reich and Jim Schartz. Pederson has no idea what he is doing and should not be a Head Coach. He reminds me of Jay Gruden... you know... without actually being good at offense unlike Gruden.

Wentz is far from innocent, but Doug is the weak link.

Edited December 2, 2020 by BayRaider

[Archimedes]

37 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

I see a few in here claiming Wentz is the issue... Wentz has been bad and needs to work on quite a bit of things, but Doug is the main problem of the two 100%. He's simply not a good coach, at all. He rode the coattails of two of the best coordinators in the NFL by a wide margin, in Frank Reich and Jim Schartz. Pederson has no idea what he is doing and should not be a Head Coach. He reminds me of Jay Gruden... you know... without actually being good at offense unlike Gruden.

Wentz is far from innocent, but Doug is the weak link.

Pederson has been to the playoffs twice since Reich left, won a division title, and won road playoff game. Both years Philly made the playoffs the offense was easily as good as the defense. Schwartz is not Jim Johnson, he’s an above average DC at best.

Wentz is new RG3, only for some bizarre reason it’s taking everyone longer to realize he sucks than it did with RG3. If Pederson had anything resembling functional qb play, the Eagles would have 6 or 7 wins and be sleepwalking their way to the division title. As it is, he has the worst starting qb in the league and there isn’t a single coach in the NFL that would have that team with a winning record with Wentz as the starter.

[Soko]

50 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

He rode the coattails of two of the best coordinators in the NFL by a wide margin, in Frank Reich and Jim Schartz

One of those things is not like the other 

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, Yin-Yang said:

One of those things is not like the other 

Schartz has been an absolutely terrific coordinator most of his career. Eagles D hasn’t look great past couple years, but this guy has led a Top 5 Defense on four separate teams, including a Super Bowl Championship Defense in 2017. 

[Soko]

4 hours ago, BayRaider said:

Schartz has been an absolutely terrific coordinator most of his career. Eagles D hasn’t look great past couple years, but this guy has led a Top 5 Defense on four separate teams, including a Super Bowl Championship Defense in 2017. 

That’s three times since 2001. Nearly 20 seasons of either being a DC or HC, and he’s accomplished 5 seasons of being top 10 in total yards allowed and 4 seasons of being in the top 10 in points allowed. Half of those occurred before 2009. He’s got more seasons ranking in the bottom 10 than he does in the top 10. 

Schwartz is solid. He does some things good, some things bad. Doesn’t sniff being a top coordinator.

EDIT: Also, if we’re talking about his SB championship...do I need to remind you how absolutely shredded his defense got in that game? Like, one of the worst of all time, statistically? Brandon Graham bulldozing Shaq Mason saved this man and all of Philadelphia.

Edited December 2, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[Saint_James]

25 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said:

That’s three times since 2001. Nearly 20 seasons of either being a DC or HC, and he’s accomplished 5 seasons of being top 10 in total yards allowed and 4 seasons of being in the top 10 in points allowed. Half of those occurred before 2009. He’s got more seasons ranking in the bottom 10 than he does in the top 10. 

Schwartz is solid. He does some things good, some things bad. Doesn’t sniff being a top coordinator.

Take any top defense, then saddle them with a QB leading the league in turnovers and least time of possession.  They will be NOT a top defense anymore. 

[Daimonas]

schwartz is literally nothing without a top of the line elite dline. I thought he wasn't nearly as good as people were hyping him up to be during the superbowl run and have wanted him gone since 2018. His inability to adjust even the most minor issues to a defense has cost the eagles wins since his tenure here. People can whine and point out that he doesnt have "talent" but they can shove it somewhere else when jim himself has directly put players that are historically bad out on islands as starters over at least average players. I.E. Jalen Mills and Nate "perfect qb rating" Gerry. He latches on to high character "project" players and forces them on the rest of the defense until they are injured and he's forced to replace them with someone mildly competent. He is no mastermind, he is no grand strategist that can get the best out of his players. He sits on his hands every game and hopes his dline gets 6 sacks and a dozen pressures and hope the corners he leaves on an island with no safety help doesn't get beat.

 

I can't say how good he was before he joined the eagles because I didn't follow his career very closely, but since joining the organization he has been anything but a top defensive coordinator. If you don't believe me you can ask just about any other eagles fan on this forum sans one or two.

[-Hope-]

14 minutes ago, Daimonas said:

schwartz is literally nothing without a top of the line elite dline. I thought he wasn't nearly as good as people were hyping him up to be during the superbowl run and have wanted him gone since 2018. His inability to adjust even the most minor issues to a defense has cost the eagles wins since his tenure here. People can whine and point out that he doesnt have "talent" but they can shove it somewhere else when jim himself has directly put players that are historically bad out on islands as starters over at least average players. I.E. Jalen Mills and Nate "perfect qb rating" Gerry. He latches on to high character "project" players and forces them on the rest of the defense until they are injured and he's forced to replace them with someone mildly competent. He is no mastermind, he is no grand strategist that can get the best out of his players. He sits on his hands every game and hopes his dline gets 6 sacks and a dozen pressures and hope the corners he leaves on an island with no safety help doesn't get beat.

 

I can't say how good he was before he joined the eagles because I didn't follow his career very closely, but since joining the organization he has been anything but a top defensive coordinator. If you don't believe me you can ask just about any other eagles fan on this forum sans one or two.

this is really funny. titans fans were complaining about the exact same thing when he was our DC way back over 10 years ago. the more things change....

[Daimonas]

2 minutes ago, -Hope- said:

this is really funny. titans fans were complaining about the exact same thing when he was our DC way back over 10 years ago. the more things change....

I can imagine it was anything but fun to watch.

[-Hope-]

5 minutes ago, Daimonas said:

I can imagine it was anything but fun to watch.

it was incredible when we had prime albert haynesworth wrecking stuff on the D-line. hell, that's what got schwartz his head coaching gig in detroit. up until big al flipped that switch, though....considerably less incredible.

[Daimonas]

Just now, -Hope- said:

it was incredible when we had prime albert haynesworth wrecking stuff on the D-line. hell, that's what got schwartz his head coaching gig in detroit. up until big al flipped that switch, though....considerably less incredible.

definitely was incredible. sack after sack until jalen mills bites on a double move from some mediocre slightly fast WR and we are just like "oh, thats terrible but stuff like this happens sometimes, schwartz will put a safety over him next drive" then it never happens for the rest of the game, then the rest of the season, then the rest of the next 3 seasons. 

[RandyMossIsBoss]

3 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Pederson has been to the playoffs twice since Reich left, won a division title, and won road playoff game. Both years Philly made the playoffs the offense was easily as good as the defense. Schwartz is not Jim Johnson, he’s an above average DC at best.

Reich straight up has more wins in Indy than Doug in Philly since he left, has also won a road playoff game, and if he was in the NFCE he'd be well on his way to a 2nd division title in 3 years. Per DVOA, the offense ranked 8th in 2017, 16th in 2018, 14th in 2019 and are 30th in 2020 (defense has ranked higher in each year). Now I don't think Reich is the sole key here, 2017's success, particularly from the QBs, was a combination of Doug, Reich and DeFilippo, and I doubt you see the same success if Doug is out of the equation. However, if you had to choose who to give the most credit to, it certainly looks more and more like Reich everyday as Doug leads a league worst offense (and you cannot just point blank blame Carson for it all, because it is Doug's decision to continue playing Carson. If anything, the FO probably wants Hurts in there, so this is purely Doug's choice to continue trotting out Wentz. If Wentz indeed is the #1 reason for the offense being so awful, that just proves Doug's incompetence when he has a 2nd rounder in the wings).

 

2 hours ago, Archimedes said:

Wentz is new RG3, only for some bizarre reason it’s taking everyone longer to realize he sucks than it did with RG3. If Pederson had anything resembling functional qb play, the Eagles would have 6 or 7 wins and be sleepwalking their way to the division title. As it is, he has the worst starting qb in the league and there isn’t a single coach in the NFL that would have that team with a winning record with Wentz as the starter.

RG3 had 1 ROTY campaign, and from then on was a mediocre QB.

Wentz had a solid rookie campaign, an MVP caliber season, and then 2 good (at worst, average) season before this league worst season.

 

It is not bizarre why Wentz is being given a longer leash here than RGIII. Also RGIII's rookie success, and why it was so special, was entirely centered around his running ability, so it was easier to accept a major knee injury actually ruining him. Wentz's game has athleticism, sure, but certainly never to the extent of RGIII, and unlike RGIII he did show at least NFL-starter QB play for 20+ games post major knee injury.

[Soko]

2 hours ago, Saint_James said:

Take any top defense, then saddle them with a QB leading the league in turnovers and least time of possession.  They will be NOT a top defense anymore. 
 

Well first off, there are plenty of examples that contradict that. Of course offense and defense (& special teams) work off of one another, but what you said isn’t an absolute rule at all. Look at the 2015 Denver defense and go check how many times their QBs gave the ball away. I’m sure there are other examples, but that one came to mind.

Second, even if it was widely accepted that good defenses cannot coexist with bad offenses, what’s the excuse for most of his career? Guy’s had primary responsibility of a defense for nearly 20 seasons and his defenses have had more bad seasons than good ones. 20 some odd years is a hard sample size to blame on the offense. If you’re using the offense as a scapegoat for a defensive coordinator over a span of two decades across multiple teams, that’s nothing short of a cop out. 

Schwartz is a one-trick pony of a DC, always has been. He deserves his credit for what’s he’s done and he’s got a good scheme that works pretty well when you plug in it’s very specific pieces (which isn’t a bad thing - look how well LeBeau did off of virtually the same loose concept). But if any of those pieces go, aren’t fits, or fall off? Schwartz doesn’t adjust. Failure to adjust is a coach-killing attribute for the most part, and I think his far-more-misses-than-hits track record supports that. 

Edited December 2, 2020 by Yin-Yang

[Saint_James]

3 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Well first off, there are plenty of examples that contradict that. Of course offense and defense (& special teams) work off of one another, but what you said isn’t an absolute rule at all. Look at the 2015 Denver defense and go check how many times their QBs gave the ball away. I’m sure there are other examples, but that one came to mind.

Second, even if it was widely accepted that good defenses cannot coexist with bad offenses, what’s the excuse for most of his career? Guy’s had primary responsibility of a defense for nearly 20 seasons and his defenses have had more bad seasons than good ones. 20 some odd years is a hard sample size to blame on the offense. If you’re using the offense as a scapegoat for a defensive coordinator over a span of two decades across multiple teams, that’s nothing short of a cop out. 

Schwartz is a one-trick pony of a DC, always has been. He deserves his credit for what’s he’s done and he’s got a good scheme that works pretty well when you plug in it’s very specific pieces (which isn’t a bad thing - look how well LeBeau did off of virtually the same loose concept). But if any of those pieces go, aren’t fits, or fall off? Schwartz doesn’t adjust. Failure to adjust is a coach-killing attribute for the most part, and I think his far-more-misses-than-hits track record supports that. 

 

I will agree that my statement isn't an absolute...but did you seriously bring the 2015 Broncos as a counterpoint?  They were a historically great defense with Payton Manning, even at his worst, still better than Wentz is right now.   They also had an incredible run game and chewed clock, which helped their defense stay fresh. 

I'm not some Schwartz homer, I really have no dog in this fight.   I'm just saying, feels like just weeks ago people were calling for my boy Dennis Allen's head on a pike.  We get one player back and get a new linebacker, now "OMG BEST DEFENSE EVAR".  When your team is playing poorly, everyone want's a scapegoat.  I get it. 

How many games were you guys in this season where Wentz just threw it to the other team?   Feels like...a LOT.