Is Travis Kelce an all time great TE?

[Apparition]

Just now, Forge said:

He was also a negative when blocking. Not a huge thing for some, but could be something that docks him from others. 

Yeah, it's an open question whether voters will look at his full body of work and consider him worthy, given that he hasn't really been viewed as an elite player since 2014 or so. But if you just look at the numbers in isolation, there's no other conclusion to make than he'll at least get serious consideration. 

[Nightime]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

And yet he played more snaps than kittle that year. Playing time isn't something that can be used in kelces favor

Correct, but he would’ve had more yards if he played on a bad team like the 2018 49ers

Kelce, not Kittle, should’ve been 1st Team All pro in 2019 (Kelce even had more YPC). Kelce should be going for his 4th First Team All Pro this year, but now he’ll have to settle for his third.

Kittle is a great TE and a worthy All-Pro, but I have to say I’ve never seen people so excited for “blocking” than when we get to a Kittle-Kelce debate

Edited December 6, 2020 by Nightime

[Forge]

 

4 minutes ago, Nightime said:

Correct, but he would’ve had more yards if he played on a bad team like the 2018 49ers

 

4 minutes ago, Nightime said:

Kittle’s 1st team All-Pro in 2019 was undeserved, and I’m glad KC was able to settle that in the Super Bowl. Kelce should be going for his 4th First Team All Pro this year, but now he’ll have to settle for his third

Kelce's 2018 all pro was undeserved, so it all all works out 

[Tk3]

Just now, Forge said:

Kelce's 2018 all pro was undeserved, so it all all works out 

Kelce had 100 receptions, 1300 yards, and 10 TD

It's one of the best TE seasons of all time IMO

[Jakuvious]

1 hour ago, CP3MVP said:

He broke the all time TE receiving yardage record with dumpster fire Qb play and very little offensive talent around him. Teams knew he was the guy and couldn’t do crap to stop him. 

For what its worth, quality of QB play really doesn't correlate that much with TE productivity. Aside from TDs. Better QB, better O, more scoring chances. But otherwise it often is a wash. Bad QB is more likely to take the easy to see big body over the middle of the field who is (if a good TE) almost always a mismatch. Better QB is more likely to see the whole field, spread the ball around. Kittle was less productive with better QB play the next year. Kelce had comparable productivity across Smith and Mahomes. Gonzalez had 4 1000 yard seasons, and only one was with Green. 0 with Ryan. The other 3 were GrBac, Huard, Coyle, and Thigpen. A great TE can often just get a huge target share from a young or lesser QB, which makes up for the lower quality offense. I used to actually argue with Chiefs fans about this when they acted like Gonzalez would be getting like 1400 yards with a better QB, based on what he did with trash.

[Forge]

Just now, Tk3 said:

Kelce had 100 receptions, 1300 yards, and 10 TD

It's one of the best TE seasons of all time IMO

Kittle had nearly 900 yards after the catch, a higher yards per route run, was an elite blocker, while setting the all time receiving yardage record for a tight end. 

It's one of the best TE seasons of all time IMO 

[Jakuvious]

5 minutes ago, Forge said:

 

Kelce's 2018 all pro was undeserved, so it all all works out 

Their 2018 seasons were far closer in productivity than their 2019 seasons. Kittle had slightly more yards (like 30 or 40 IIRC), and a better ypc, but Kelce had double the TDs and a better catch rate. 2019 Kelce won or tied across the board.

[Jakuvious]

Honestly, I kind of thought the 2019 all pro bid for Kittle was a makeup for him not getting it in 2018, when he had a much better argument. He just got more press in 2019 because the 49ers were a much better team then. Itd be more accurate if the two years were flipped, IMO.

 

Either way, thus isn't a Kelce versus Kittle thread. And regardless of how those all pros went, Kelce had been either the most productive TE by far, or basically tied for most productive, every year for the last 5 years. He and Kittle were damn close statistically in 2019, he and Gronk were damn close in 2017, and those are the only years he wasn't first team all pro.

[Forge]

2 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Honestly, I kind of thought the 2019 all pro bid for Kittle was a makeup for him not getting it in 2018, when he had a much better argument. He just got more press in 2019 because the 49ers were a much better team then. Itd be more accurate if the two years were flipped, IMO.

 

It 100% was. Kittle's value was insanely high last year (there was that whole stat that made the rounds about his blocking impact and the 49ers averaging like 2+ more yards per carry to his side when he was playing), and maybe you make that argument I guess, but I think it's flimsy and really shouldn't be what the all pro team is about. I think it was a make up for the year prior

[CP3MVP]

21 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

For what its worth, quality of QB play really doesn't correlate that much with TE productivity. Aside from TDs. Better QB, better O, more scoring chances. But otherwise it often is a wash. Bad QB is more likely to take the easy to see big body over the middle of the field who is (if a good TE) almost always a mismatch. Better QB is more likely to see the whole field, spread the ball around. Kittle was less productive with better QB play the next year. Kelce had comparable productivity across Smith and Mahomes. Gonzalez had 4 1000 yard seasons, and only one was with Green. 0 with Ryan. The other 3 were GrBac, Huard, Coyle, and Thigpen. A great TE can often just get a huge target share from a young or lesser QB, which makes up for the lower quality offense. I used to actually argue with Chiefs fans about this when they acted like Gonzalez would be getting like 1400 yards with a better QB, based on what he did with trash.

Tony Gonzales played on all time great offenses in KC though. Football outsiders ranked the 00, 02,03,04 as 4 of their top offenses of the last 30 years. I think all 4 were in the top 15. 
 

The 2018 49ers were dumpster fire around Kittle.

Edited December 6, 2020 by CP3MVP

[Forge]

11 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

Their 2018 seasons were far closer in productivity than their 2019 seasons. Kittle had slightly more yards (like 30 or 40 IIRC), and a better ypc, but Kelce had double the TDs and a better catch rate. 2019 Kelce won or tied across the board.

I was being hyperbolic because I have a long history of just dealing with some of the arguments in this conversation that are simply annoyingly bad and when correcting, people just make it worse lol. 

[MSURacerDT55]

No question he is, productive pre, Mahomes, productive post Mahomes

[Jakuvious]

22 minutes ago, CP3MVP said:

Tony Gonzales played on all time great offenses in KC though. Football outsiders ranked the 00, 02,03,04 as 4 of their top offenses of the last 30 years. I think all 4 were in the top 15. 
 

The 2018 49ers were dumpster fire around Kittle.

I dont know how you think this disproves my point. I never said Gonzalez never had great offenses. I said the productivity doesn't correlate, between TE productivity and QB quality. Two of Gonzalez's most productive years were 07 and 08 with Huard, Coyle, and Thigpen. Kolby Smith at RB. Mark Bradley and Dwayne Bowe at WR. If it was more impressive to produce as a TE in a bad offense, you'd think Gonzalez's highest yardage years would've been in 02, 03, 04, right? You'd think Kittle would've produced more in a better 19 offense. Thats not the case, though.

Also, I guarantee the 2000 Chiefs were not on that list lol. That was before Green, Holmes, Roaf, Waters, etc. We started two FBs that year at RB. I know 02, 03, 04 made it. 00 did not.

[Nightime]

55 minutes ago, Forge said:

 

Kelce's 2018 all pro was undeserved, so it all all works out 

There is precedent for Kelce winning 1st Team All-Pro in 2018

In 2004, Tony Gonzalez had 300 more receiving yards than Antonio Gates, and better Y/R, but Gates got the 1st Team All-Pro because he scored twice as many touchdowns, and his team made the playoffs. In 2018, Kelce had fewer yards but had twice as many touchdowns and was part of a playoff team

 

[CP3MVP]

7 minutes ago, Jakuvious said:

I dont know how you think this disproves my point. I never said Gonzalez never had great offenses. I said the productivity doesn't correlate, between TE productivity and QB quality. Two of Gonzalez's most productive years were 07 and 08 with Huard, Coyle, and Thigpen. Kolby Smith at RB. Mark Bradley and Dwayne Bowe at WR. If it was more impressive to produce as a TE in a bad offense, you'd think Gonzalez's highest yardage years would've been in 02, 03, 04, right? You'd think Kittle would've produced more in a better 19 offense. Thats not the case, though.

Also, I guarantee the 2000 Chiefs were not on that list lol. That was before Green, Holmes, Roaf, Waters, etc. We started two FBs that year at RB. I know 02, 03, 04 made it. 00 did not.

There’s bad QBs and bad offenses. What I’m saying is Kittle had BOTH and had one of the all time QB seasons. 
 

And I made a mistake. 2004 at 13, 2003 at 7 and 2002 at 5

Edited December 6, 2020 by CP3MVP