Super4 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 6 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said: We dont need a role-playing WR... We have had a blocker roleplaying the WR class D&D style for years .. T. Williams. Think its time for an actual receiver to play opposite of Dez. Yeah, Christian Kirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WizardHawk Posted March 4, 2018 Author Share Posted March 4, 2018 Kirk's numbers are disappointing.Not quick. Not explosive. Pretty sure this is well below what Dallas looks for. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/christian-kirk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 13 minutes ago, WizardHawk said: Kirk's numbers are disappointing.Not quick. Not explosive. Pretty sure this is well below what Dallas looks for. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/christian-kirk Is it? Cause im pretty sure thats what they draft every year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 14 minutes ago, WizardHawk said: Kirk's numbers are disappointing.Not quick. Not explosive. Pretty sure this is well below what Dallas looks for. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/christian-kirk I have not watched much of the WRs yet. But.. Kirk plays much faster than some underwear olympics numbers show. He runs solid routes, catches well, competes for the ball, and has bought separation against some good college DBs While the idea of a "fast" receiver is cool, speed is not how you get open deep. Speed is how you sprint freely when given the ball in space. You still need to get open and catch the ball. A good deep threat isnt so much fast or speedy as he is simply capable of getting good separation on a vertical route and competing for position on a DB, and yes, being able to make the catch. This league is full of fast explosive WRs able to outrun most DBs who arent even close to being a deep threat. They are YAC and screen and slot and gimmick threats. But some of the best vertical threats arent very fast guys. Julio, our own Dez Bryant prior to this season, TO, Rice, Moss.. yes fairly quick and could outrun guys, but what made them vertical threats wasnt 4.3 speed it was knowing how to play the vertical game and being physically able to look in and lock away a deep throw. Kirk may end up sucking...but dont confuse fast/speedy with deep threat. They are not the same thing. Not in 2018. Maybe in 1980. Even 1990. But not in 2018. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super4 Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 17 minutes ago, Dallas94Ware said: I have not watched much of the WRs yet. But.. Kirk plays much faster than some underwear olympics numbers show. He runs solid routes, catches well, competes for the ball, and has bought separation against some good college DBs While the idea of a "fast" receiver is cool, speed is not how you get open deep. Speed is how you sprint freely when given the ball in space. You still need to get open and catch the ball. A good deep threat isnt so much fast or speedy as he is simply capable of getting good separation on a vertical route and competing for position on a DB, and yes, being able to make the catch. This league is full of fast explosive WRs able to outrun most DBs who arent even close to being a deep threat. They are YAC and screen and slot and gimmick threats. But some of the best vertical threats arent very fast guys. Julio, our own Dez Bryant prior to this season, TO, Rice, Moss.. yes fairly quick and could outrun guys, but what made them vertical threats wasnt 4.3 speed it was knowing how to play the vertical game and being physically able to look in and lock away a deep throw. Kirk may end up sucking...but dont confuse fast/speedy with deep threat. They are not the same thing. Not in 2018. Maybe in 1980. Even 1990. But not in 2018. I'm fairly surprised you and I have similar thoughts on Kirk. Would have assumed you didn't like him as a prospect. His underwear olympic numbers in some areas were actually better than what some people expected, and he was already a Late 1st to Mid 2nd round projection anyway. His route running is very good, he's strong and attacks the football. He's explosive after the catch and powerful, and he's a slow guy who can play outside and consitently will blow by defenders deep. If you have bad positioning, it's to the house. He's so Dak friendly it's almost mind-numbing to me that other people don't seem to agree. The kid is going to be a stud IMHO. My favorite player in this draft and I seriously think Dallas will take him if they can. 30 minutes ago, WizardHawk said: Kirk's numbers are disappointing.Not quick. Not explosive. Pretty sure this is well below what Dallas looks for. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/christian-kirk Can't tell if serious, or... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 4, 2018 Share Posted March 4, 2018 30 minutes ago, Super4 said: I'm fairly surprised you and I have similar thoughts on Kirk. Would have assumed you didn't like him as a prospect. His underwear olympic numbers in some areas were actually better than what some people expected, and he was already a Late 1st to Mid 2nd round projection anyway. His route running is very good, he's strong and attacks the football. He's explosive after the catch and powerful, and he's a slow guy who can play outside and consitently will blow by defenders deep. If you have bad positioning, it's to the house. He's so Dak friendly it's almost mind-numbing to me that other people don't seem to agree. The kid is going to be a stud IMHO. My favorite player in this draft and I seriously think Dallas will take him if they can... I havent studied the WRs like I have the QBs...yet. But I have watched enough of Kirk to know he runs a good set of routes and competes hard for the football, which is really something this team needs more than some 4.35 speedster who cant separate and is inconsistent catching tough balls. Speed doesnt make a deep threat...a lot of fans do not realize that. And digging deeper in a Cowboys-specific way, Williams' biggest problem is not his inability to run vertical routes, nor a lack of speed, nor even is it poor routes...it is an inability to separate and compete for a hard catch. The manner of how he catches and his lack of physicality going for tough catches makes it hard for a Qb to rely on him in tough situations. Dez, as a result, saw safeties rolled to his side and Beasley in turn dealt with an extra coverage in his way. Ive said it before, Ill say it again - the biggest problem this offense had was Williams. Not Dak, Dez, Zeke or Beas. But Williams. This team shot itself in the foot when they signed him instead of shopping for something that could help alleviate the pressure elsewhere. And that does not mean we need to sell out for some 4.3 sprinter, but add an extra receiver who can catch a ball consistently, play physical enough to work vertical down the field when asked to, and make a hard catch for a first down when this team is in need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingmonkey30 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 My issue with Kirk is he's a slot receiver. That's what he was at A&M, I think that's probably what he'll be in the NFL. Which is fine, I have no problem with having an elite slot receiver, but we already have two slot guys. I'd rather find a true Z receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super4 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 40 minutes ago, flyingmonkey30 said: My issue with Kirk is he's a slot receiver. That's what he was at A&M, I think that's probably what he'll be in the NFL. Which is fine, I have no problem with having an elite slot receiver, but we already have two slot guys. I'd rather find a true Z receiver. I think that's the issue most people have with him. He's predominantly a slot guy, but this is where I think people have him misjudged. He certainly more than capable of playing outside also, and I think he'll get a chance at being able to prove that. In terms of being loaded at the slot, I also don't see a reason why we couldn't run alot of the style of what the Patriots run. Edelman is a prime example of a slot guy who plays outside alot in the Z. He ran just 51.2% of his routes in the slot last season (2016). See no reason why Kirk couldn't be asked and wouldn't thrive doing the same thing. He fits the mold of the Z really well... moving him in and out of outside formations and into crossing routes where the would thrive. He can also blow by guys and take the top off, and is strong enough to beat press coverage as well. I mean, yes, I'm enamoured with the guy and have been shilling him for awhile so excuse the bias. I don't think he's the best WR in this class; but do I think he's the best WR in the draft for the Cowboys -- by a mile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calvert28 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 I would rather us take 2 of these TE's then any of these receivers in this draft. Hayden Hurst has some definite game speed. Gesicki showcased some serious athletic talent and always displays it on the field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plan9misfit Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 11 minutes ago, Calvert28 said: I would rather us take 2 of these TE's then any of these receivers in this draft. Hayden Hurst has some definite game speed. Gesicki showcased some serious athletic talent and always displays it on the field. Pretty much. I’m not terribly high on any of the WRs in this year’s draft. We’d be better off offering Pittsburgh a mid-round pick for Martavis Bryant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaBoys Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 6 hours ago, WizardHawk said: Kirk's numbers are disappointing.Not quick. Not explosive. Pretty sure this is well below what Dallas looks for. https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/christian-kirk Not surprising though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony7188 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 14 hours ago, plan9misfit said: Pretty much. I’m not terribly high on any of the WRs in this year’s draft. We’d be better off offering Pittsburgh a mid-round pick for Martavis Bryant. I would rather use that mid round pick to trade up in the 2nd and draft DJ Chark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony7188 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 14 hours ago, Calvert28 said: I would rather us take 2 of these TE's then any of these receivers in this draft. Hayden Hurst has some definite game speed. Gesicki showcased some serious athletic talent and always displays it on the field. How is Gesicki as a blocker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dallas94Ware Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 15 hours ago, flyingmonkey30 said: My issue with Kirk is he's a slot receiver. That's what he was at A&M, I think that's probably what he'll be in the NFL. Which is fine, I have no problem with having an elite slot receiver, but we already have two slot guys. I'd rather find a true Z receiver. He is more of a motion man than a slot receiver. On a two wide set, he can easily play outside with the know-how to separate against press, man, zone or combo. But when coming out with 3 receivers, he moves inside where his short area quickness allows him to possibly work against a weaker cover guy (safety or linebacker), or at the very least, have more field to work off of as he is no longer pressed to the sideline. There are a lot of "true Z or X" kind of guys in the league who move inside on three wide sets. We honestly should have done this with Bryant more in his career. We only likely did not because removing someone like Beasley from the field (a guy only truly effective from the inside) to put some nobody like Noah Brown or Brice Butler outside seemed rather dumb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texas_OutLaw7 Posted March 5, 2018 Share Posted March 5, 2018 How would everyone feel if after the first two days this was Dallas Draft: 1. W. Hernandez, LG 2. H. Phillips, NT 3. S. Griffin, SLB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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