Raves Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 6 hours ago, BigTrav said: Donald, TJ Watt, Trey Hendrickson, Chris Jones, Jalen Ramsey, Myles Garrett Someone mentioned Hendrickson, so I'm happy. Was fully expecting no one to even have him even listed even with his phenomenal year. Definitely won't win though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrubes20 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: He allows some completions, then just punches the ball out and scores off of it. He doesn't allow touchdowns, and he forces more turnovers than any CB in the league (the same amount as Xavien) while playing on one of the best defenses. He's more Charles Woodson than Darrelle Revis, and that's why you see more completions and such against him. He belongs every bit in this conversation as Xavien Howard does. Plus, I find it very hard to believe that after the Dolphins just gave up 52 points, Howard wasn't a victim of one of those. Nope. It was Byron Jones getting abused on those (and Nik Needham late in the game when the backups came in on D). X played the way he usually does when he's healthy, which is terrific. Byron Jones was a huge disappointment yesterday though (and quite honestly, most of the year). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, hrubes20 said: Nope. It was Byron Jones getting abused on those (and Nik Needham late in the game when the backups came in on D). X played the way he usually does when he's healthy, which is terrific. Byron Jones was a huge disappointment yesterday though (and quite honestly, most of the year). So you're telling me that 3 different receivers went over 70 yards for Buffalo (davis, Diggs and Brown) with McKenzie also having 65 yards, and Xavien Howard played lights out? I truly find that hard to believe. Stefon Diggs alone had 7 receptions for 76 yards. You're telling me your DPOY candidate didn't even cover him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rich homie Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 Aaron Donald, TJ Watt, Xavien Howard, DeForest Buckner, Myles Garrett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrubes20 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: So you're telling me that 3 different receivers went over 70 yards for Buffalo (davis, Diggs and Brown) with McKenzie also having 65 yards, and Xavien Howard played lights out? I truly find that hard to believe. Stefon Diggs alone had 7 receptions for 76 yards. You're telling me your DPOY candidate didn't even cover him? I think we differ on what is "lights out" for a CB in this age of football. Nobody is going to stop arguably the best WR in the league this year from catching a few passes. But I'd be surprised if X was covering Diggs on even 3 of those 7 catches. Allen simply didn't throw X's way. And why would he when Byron Jones and Nik Needham were able to be abused as badly as they were? I can only remember one play where Diggs made a catch with X in coverage (could have been more, obviously). It was a slant where X was supposed to have some help from Eric Rowe, the safety, in the middle. Rowe was woefully out of position and Diggs was able to get a nice gain; maybe 20 yards or so. Still counts against X though, I suppose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 hours ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: He allows some completions, then just punches the ball out and scores off of it. He doesn't allow touchdowns, and he forces more turnovers than any CB in the league (the same amount as Xavien) while playing on one of the best defenses. He's more Charles Woodson than Darrelle Revis, and that's why you see more completions and such against him. He belongs every bit in this conversation as Xavien Howard does. Plus, I find it very hard to believe that after the Dolphins just gave up 52 points, Howard wasn't a victim of one of those. He got targeted 12 more times and gave 20 more catches. The difference in their completion percentage given up is close to 15% - that’s not just a “a few”. And you’d be wrong on that last comment too, Howard didn’t give up any TDs in Week 17. That’s according to statistics tracked by PFR, not just “the Bills scored 56, Howard must have given up some TDs”. No one in the universe (that isn’t a homer) is going to vote a CB for DPOY when they allow +60% of passes completed (on 100+ targets, no less), 11 pass deflections, an 85 passer rating allowed (Howard’s was almost half this), and only one interception. It’ll never happen. His leg up is he’s given up one less TD and forced 8 balls to come loose. Statistically, no ones going to give that the time of day when the rest of their coverage stats are so overwhelmingly in Howard’s favor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTrav Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 hours ago, Raves said: Someone mentioned Hendrickson, so I'm happy. Was fully expecting no one to even have him even listed even with his phenomenal year. Definitely won't win though. Where the hell did this guy come from?? Never heard of it him before this season, now he's a stud Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 2 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: He got targeted 12 more times and gave 20 more catches. The difference in their completion percentage given up is close to 15% - that’s not just a “a few”. And you’d be wrong on that last comment too, Howard didn’t give up any TDs in Week 17. That’s according to statistics tracked by PFR, not just “the Bills scored 56, Howard must have given up some TDs”. No one in the universe (that isn’t a homer) is going to vote a CB for DPOY when they allow +60% of passes completed (on 100+ targets, no less), 11 pass deflections, an 85 passer rating allowed (Howard’s was almost half this), and only one interception. It’ll never happen. His leg up is he’s given up one less TD and forced 8 balls to come loose. Statistically, no ones going to give that the time of day when the rest of their coverage stats are so overwhelmingly in Howard’s favor. What was Charles Woodson's stats in 2011, specifically with his completion %? DB's who create turnovers get attention all the time. You're either a shutdown CB, or you're someone who creates turnovers. Humphrey is actually both, but when he plays in the slot (which he's had to do this year), he is the latter. When he's playing outside, he's a shutdown CB. Lastly, per PFR's own site, the advanced stats aren't updated until Wednesday following a team's game. So what you're seeing there doesn't reflect Week 17. It even says it right next to the chart: Quote Advanced stats are updated the Wednesday following the week's games. The advanced stats shown here are updated through week 16 of the 2020 season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 9 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said: What was Charles Woodson's stats in 2011, specifically with his completion %? DB's who create turnovers get attention all the time. You're either a shutdown CB, or you're someone who creates turnovers. Humphrey is actually both, but when he plays in the slot (which he's had to do this year), he is the latter. When he's playing outside, he's a shutdown CB. No idea, you have that info offhand? It’s interesting you’d bring up 11’ Woodson though, because how he took the ball away seemed to be more like Howard than Humphrey (7 interceptions, 1 FF). If Humph is a shutdown CB when he plays outside the numbers, then he either never played outside the numbers or he gets absolutely torched playing in the slot. 100+ targets, +60% completion rating allowed. Also funny enough, the other guy you brought up ITT, Darrelle Revis, actually did both of what you said a CB has to be either on of - he was a shutdown CB and took the ball away, despite absolutely not getting picked on 100+ times. Since we’re using examples, has their ever been a CB that won DPOY with only one interception? I’d have said one with an 85 passer rating against, but I doubt any site would have that tracked. Quote Lastly, per PFR's own site, the advanced stats aren't updated until Wednesday following a team's game. So what you're seeing there doesn't reflect Week 17. It even says it right next to the chart: Right you are! Definitely something we can revisit in a couple days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 3 hours ago, El Ramster said: Honestly without the Dolphins making the post season. I simply don’t think Xavien will get the votes. We’ve been on the other end when Robert Quinn had like 3-4 blocked punts/FGs and 19 sacks one year. Dude was bananas. It’s either Donald or Watt IMO. Don’t have to make the playoffs to win DPOY, but I get the argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) Didn't really watch enough of all the teams to say, but from what I've seen/heard... INPO; TJ Watt Aaron Donald Myles Garrett Xav Howard Jaire Alexander Edited January 4, 2021 by Hunter2_1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 Humphrey imo is a Top 5-7 CB in the NFL for a variety of reasons, but saying he was anything close to a Top Cover Corner is a huge stretch by someone in this thread. The data and facts do not support it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnobili Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 i think it should be aaron donald but theres that michael jordan mvp effect 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BayRaider Posted January 4, 2021 Author Share Posted January 4, 2021 I’m not sure how Donald was more impressive than Howard or Watt this year? Donald had a super easy schedule, and 4 of his 13 sacks came against one NFC East team. It’s also probably not even in Donald’s Top 3 seasons. No pass rusher was super great this year to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFlaccoSeagulls Posted January 4, 2021 Share Posted January 4, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Yin-Yang said: No idea, you have that info offhand? No, I don't think PFR started tracking it until 2018, which is why I was wondering. Quote It’s interesting you’d bring up 11’ Woodson though, because how he took the ball away seemed to be more like Howard than Humphrey (7 interceptions, 1 FF). If Humph is a shutdown CB when he plays outside the numbers, then he either never played outside the numbers or he gets absolutely torched playing in the slot. 100+ targets, +60% completion rating allowed. Torched playing the slot? lol I think he allowed one touchdown this year...sure, he allowed some receptions but I'd also like to know how many yards he gave up compared to the other guys as well, but absolutely does not get "torched" playing the slot. EDIT: Just found it. According to PFR: Humphrey Yards-Per-Reception: 10 Howard YPR: 13 Alexander YPR: 9.5 Humphrey allowed 60 more yards than Howard did, despite allowing 20 more completions. So yeah, there's no realistic argument for him getting "torched". Quote Also funny enough, the other guy you brought up ITT, Darrelle Revis, actually did both of what you said a CB has to be either on of - he was a shutdown CB and took the ball away, despite absolutely not getting picked on 100+ times. Revis was really not known for takeaways. He had 2 seasons with 5+, but more often than not it was <5 INT's/season, which is pretty standard for CB's who are shutdown. I'd actually say Richard Sherman in his 2-year stretch of 2012-13 was a better example of shutdown + turnovers. Quote Since we’re using examples, has their ever been a CB that won DPOY with only one interception? I’d have said one with an 85 passer rating against, but I doubt any site would have that tracked. Not sure. I don't view it was interceptions vs. FF's, I view it as turnovers, since the result is the same. If people want to say "well he only had 1 INT", that's their problem for ignoring the EIGHT forced fumbles. Speaking of CB's with only 1 INT, I see a lot of people putting Jaire Alexander on their lists...hmmmmm.... Edited January 4, 2021 by AFlaccoSeagulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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