The "supporting cast" argument

[MSURacerDT55]

Well this means Cam deserves extra credit for taking a supporting cast of Philly Brown, Ted Ginn Jr, Jerricho Cotchery and Greg Olsen to the #1 scoring offense in the league and a Super Bowl appearance.

[wackywabbit]

1 hour ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Well this means Cam deserves extra credit for taking a supporting cast of Philly Brown, Ted Ginn Jr, Jerricho Cotchery and Greg Olsen to the #1 scoring offense in the league and a Super Bowl appearance.

Absolutely it does. Peak/healthy Cam is very underappreciated.

Edited March 30, 2021 by wackywabbit

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

Supporting cast being important should be dependant on the context of the discussion. Coaching schemes should be way more involved in player evaluations too. You can scheme around bad players, but good players can’t as easily over come a bad scheme.

end of the day you likely need 53 players who won’t singlehandedly blow a given game for you.

Edited March 30, 2021 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[HoboRocket]

On 3/8/2021 at 9:32 PM, biggie. said:

 N'Keal Harry couldn't separate from a drunk hobo

It's true. I was 10 drinks in and he still couldn't manage to escape.

[DannyB]

On 3/9/2021 at 8:15 AM, CP3MVP said:

Brady  leading that Pats to the 11th overall offense in DVOA in 2019 is one of the best accomplishments of his career

Meeeeh I'm split on this. That offense freaking sucked I don't care what wizardry you use to try to polish that turd. An absolute slog to watch, and Brady did NOT have a good year.

That said, if you actually watched his play, you could tell that he wasn't physically washed up or anything. He could still make throws, and lord knows he can diagnose a defense in his sleep. He was still playing like a top 10 guy and since it's Brady, you've got that added "it" factor.

This isn't revisionist history on my part either. Prior to him going to Tampa I was adamant on these forums that several teams would be wise to try and get Brady for the shot at a legit run. Some of the teams I mentioned, it would've been as pretty ballsy move considering they had some success with the QBs they were bringing back (looking at you, SF and TEN), but I feel like I've been more than vindicated. I even said it at the time: do you want to be safe, and be almost assured of a "good" season, or do you want to take a risk for what it takes to win a championship?

God I was so right.

[Awsi Dooger]

5 hours ago, DannyB said:

Meeeeh I'm split on this. That offense freaking sucked I don't care what wizardry you use to try to polish that turd. An absolute slog to watch, and Brady did NOT have a good year.

That said, if you actually watched his play, you could tell that he wasn't physically washed up or anything. He could still make throws, and lord knows he can diagnose a defense in his sleep. He was still playing like a top 10 guy and since it's Brady, you've got that added "it" factor.

This isn't revisionist history on my part either. Prior to him going to Tampa I was adamant on these forums that several teams would be wise to try and get Brady for the shot at a legit run. Some of the teams I mentioned, it would've been as pretty ballsy move considering they had some success with the QBs they were bringing back (looking at you, SF and TEN), but I feel like I've been more than vindicated. I even said it at the time: do you want to be safe, and be almost assured of a "good" season, or do you want to take a risk for what it takes to win a championship?

God I was so right.

Brady fell apart physically late in 2019. He looked old and played old. It was glaring as a Dolphins fan. Brady looked 30 during the game at Miami early season. Springy arm including an absolute laser for a deep touchdown. Then during the finale at Foxboro he was shot. I knew darn well New England had no chance in the playoffs without a bye, given Brady's physical capabilities at the time. When they reached 3rd and medium to long against Tennessee he couldn't threaten downfield at all. 

I expected the same thing to happen to lesser degree in 2020. I mentioned it in the Tom Brady thread. I didn't think he could hide his age throughout a full season anymore. Frankly I think the pandemic year with no preseason and later start to everything played to advantage for an older quarterback. 

As someone else posted recently in this thread, once the sample size is large enough then situation and supporting cast mean nothing. You are what you are. I am often condemned on Dolphins sites for insisting that Joe Montana as a system quarterback is laughable. I remember him dating to extraordinary efforts coming off the bench as a sophomore at Notre Dame. You've got to be a fool to diminish Joe Montana based on desperation to be a happy adjuster. Likewise they hated me on Dolphins sites for always insisting that the Patriots were mostly Brady and partially Belichick. If you step back and look at the big picture without any names involved, and without watching one play from any of those seasons, the bottom line screams it had to be the quarterback. Only idiotic reliance on subjectivity pointed in the other direction. The guys in Las Vegas who rely on subjectivity leave town broke on a bus. I saw it for 24 years. You learn wide scope lens in that town or you have no chance. 

[Soko]

18 minutes ago, Awsi Dooger said:

Brady fell apart physically late in 2019. He looked old and played old. It was glaring as a Dolphins fan. Brady looked 30 during the game at Miami early season. Springy arm including an absolute laser for a deep touchdown. Then during the finale at Foxboro he was shot. I knew darn well New England had no chance in the playoffs without a bye, given Brady's physical capabilities at the time. When they reached 3rd and medium to long against Tennessee he couldn't threaten downfield at all. 

How did you expect him to threaten the team downfield? Julian Edelman had a massive shoulder injury, no tight ends were threatening the seams (or anywhere at all), the run game wasn’t strong enough to suck defenders in, N’Keal did nothing, Meyers was only flashing and isn’t a downfield threat, Dorsett is trash. 

It’s not like there were any real deep threats on the team that weren’t being used. Brady’s been prone to some bad floaters, that started before 2019 and usually occurred when he was being pressured. But that’s not new. Brady didn’t physically regress much, if at all, from 18 to 19.

[DannyB]

1 hour ago, Awsi Dooger said:

Brady fell apart physically late in 2019. He looked old and played old.

No he didn't and no he didn't.

Losing something on the fringes of his game? A few ticks below where he was from, say, '06-'16? Sure. But not at all physically "done".

The biggest difference in his play was because of the thing that almost zero Patriots fans wanted to admit at the time, but was glaringly obvious, even moreso in retrospect: Brady was DONE WITH BILL AND DONE WITH THE PATRIOTS. He was fed up with it and wanted out. He hated his offense that year, and literally couldn't mask his disgust with that patented "aw shucks I'm just here to be the best quarterback I can be" shtick he'd honed to a science over the course of almost 2 decades.

In the right situation I was extremely confident that he'd return to form. Win the Super Bowl and put up the raw numbers he did? No sir, now THAT would be revisionist history. But be SOLIDLY a top 10 QB and lead his team on a nice playoff run? Yup.

[SkippyX]

The Giants got LT in 1982 and Parcells in 1983. They were the 49ers chew toy in 1984.

• In 1985 they put Bill Belichick in charge of the D.
  • For the next 6 years one Joe Montana was Belichick's chew toy.
    • Montana put up 3, 3, and 13 points in 3 playoff games vs Belichick's D
    • That's 6.3 points per game when facing BB and 28.2 when not.
    • Joe put up 23 and 28 on the 1984 and 1989 Bears (D's ranked 3/1 and 1/2)

Getting to one Super Bowl defines a career. Winning one doubly so.

• Bill won a pair in NY and his 1990 game plan was so incredible that the Hall of Fame put it on display.

He got to yet another Super Bowl with New England in 1996.

• Parcells was 21-27 in 3 years before BB joined him for 1996.

Parcells Splits:

• No BB running his Defense: 9 years 33-46-1 regular season 1-4 in the playoffs
• BB running his defense: 10 years 105-54 regular season 10-3 in the playoffs 4 CCGs 3 Super Bowls 2 rings

See a pattern? (and yes, this means Bill has been to 17 NFCCGs/AFCCGs) (Tom Landry got to 15 of them counting DC in NY)

 

Brady is pretty. Brady is a better QB than BB is at DC/Head Coach.

None of that means BB is not awesome to the point of legendary.

 

You can't neutralize 12 Super Bowls (3 without Brady) and 8 wins (2 without Brady) because the 1995 Browns announced they were moving and Brady left a cap and leadership hole in a COVID season.

 

Edited March 31, 2021 by SkippyX

[SkippyX]

I'm also curious about the 2001 title.

• When they gave up 17, 17, and 13 to the 4th, 7th, and 1st best offenses was that all Brady or does Bill get some credit?
• When the Patriots got 2 special teams TDs and a Drew Bledsoe TD pass in a 24-17 AFCCG win, was that all on Brady?
• When Ty Law scored 7 and Brady led them to 13 more, was that all on Brady?
• When they forced 7 turnovers in the AFCCG and Super Bowl combined, was that Brady?

Brady was clutch and awesome and legendary. He also had some help.

Edited March 31, 2021 by SkippyX