Covid-19 News/Discussion

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, incognito_man said:

The government never lied to you. The information about risks has ALWAYS been available for you to understand. 

It's unclear why you're dealing in absolutes in a situation that's driven by statistics and trade-offs. 

What a strange argument. A tweet from our government:

"The rule is now simple: get vaccinated or wear a mask until you do.

The choice is yours"

Yet, we know that the vaccinated can pass the virus to the vaccinated high-risk members of our population, and, as a result, should have never stopped wearing masks and social distancing.

That shouldn't be the "trade-off". The messaging should be clear.

[ET80]

5 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

That wasn't my point, but one statement taken out of context. My full quote:

If we knew that the vaccines aren't perfect, that they lose their effectiveness over time and that one can still get and transmit COVID despite being vaccinated (statements that you regarded as common knowledge), we should have never lifted those health measures for the vaccinated in the first place.

My statement still applies:

8 minutes ago, ET80 said:

We ALWAYS knew vaccines weren't perfect. This shouldn't have to be stated. There is no 100% measure.

The only addendum I'd add to it is we'd still have people breaking measures. 

8 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

People will always speed, but that doesn't mean we remove speed limits. We post them for the safety of all and the majority of the people comply.

But we have recourse for people who don't comply - tickets, fines, points on your record, jail time in extreme cases - if you speed, there are consequences that are enforced.

What are the consequences for people who don't wear a mask or follow mandates? Are there any actual enforceable consequences, or is it limited to "you could get the virus"?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, ET80 said:

My statement still applies:

The only addendum I'd add to it is we'd still have people breaking measures. 

But we have recourse for people who don't comply - tickets, fines, points on your record, jail time in extreme cases - if you speed, there are consequences that are enforced.

What are the consequences for people who don't wear a mask or follow mandates? Are there any actual enforceable consequences, or is it limited to "you could get the virus"?

But you still don't tell them that speeding is acceptable. You don't say "you can enter this establishment without a mask if you've been vaccinated".

If wearing masks can prevent the high-risk members of the population, we should ask that people wear masks, not tell them that they don't have to because "some might not listen".

[ET80]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

But you still don't tell them that speeding is acceptable. 

As a LEO, do you pull over someone going 47 in a 45? That's speeding... are you enforcing it?

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

You don't say "you can enter this establishment without a mask if you've been vaccinated".

As stated above, you don't pull over someone going 2mph over the speed limit, so you are implying "you can go beyond the speed limit as long as it's not excessive" by your choice on enforcement.

4 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

If wearing masks can prevent the high-risk members of the population, we should ask that people wear masks, not tell them that they don't have to because "some might not listen".

I don't disagree with this - but there are those who do, and who are willing to make enough of a stink about it to get those in power to make changes, even if the changes are detremental.

[Xenos]

4 hours ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

As a vaccinated person, this is what I have a problem with: months (and months) ago, I was told that, two weeks after my second shot, I can go out without a mask on and certain restrictions will be lifted. Getting vaccinated was the line between this strange new lifestyle and the way things used to be. That sounded reasonable enough.

We now know that the vaccinated are still getting COVID, and that the symptoms are lessened. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

It's also being reported that the effectiveness of the Pfizer vaccine drops an average of 6% every two months, dropping to around 84% effectiveness after six months. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

Just days ago, the director of the CDC stated that the vaccine does not prevent the transmission of the virus. This is something I did not know at the time of my vaccination.

In other words: by complying with the directions I was given, it's possible that I've had COVID since my vaccination, took lesser measures because I was vaccinated, and could have potentially passed COVID to a high-risk individual who had waning protection from their vaccine. I've spent time around my parents, friends, family and members of the public, and could have put each of them at risk. And this is likely true for the majority of the 165M vaccinated in this country.

There's just so much we didn't - and still don't - know.

ET answered this better than I can. But short answer is that Delta happened and not enough people got vaccinated. When they made all those directions you listed, the vaccine worked exactly like it should against the original strain and even Alpha. Delta was only in 1% of the new cases at the time.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Xenos

[ramssuperbowl99]

19 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

What a strange argument. A tweet from our government:

"The rule is now simple: get vaccinated or wear a mask until you do.

The choice is yours"

Yet, we know that the vaccinated can pass the virus to the vaccinated high-risk members of our population, and, as a result, should have never stopped wearing masks and social distancing.

That shouldn't be the "trade-off". The messaging should be clear.

I agree with you that scientific messaging should be better, and the pandemic has highlighted the need to have someone that understands medicine, sociology, and public policy. 

That said, we should acknowledge that the messaging is impossible to do effectively because you have people deliberating amplifying bad information. It's like if a speeding advertisement had a speedometer showing 50 in a 35 with a "Don't speed!" text, and that night on the news someone news anchor interpreted that as "Remember: Big Slow Car doesn't even want you speeding if it's a medical emergency", "Well what about planes and boats?", "My buddy from Europe goes 50 and drives on the left side and he's fine!" 

 

Early on in the pandemic Fauci in particular tried to be more consultative and explain the concepts, but after being taken out of context he started saying things that were more generally true, slight oversimplifications to try and make it more clear. (Of course, that doesn't work because then the same people who took things out of context go after the parts where the oversimplification breaks down.) 

At some level, the CDC is playing a game they can't win.

[incognito_man]

25 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

What a strange argument. A tweet from our government:

"The rule is now simple: get vaccinated or wear a mask until you do.

The choice is yours"

Yet, we know that the vaccinated can pass the virus to the vaccinated high-risk members of our population, and, as a result, should have never stopped wearing masks and social distancing.

That shouldn't be the "trade-off". The messaging should be clear.

The message has ALWAYS been clear: if you're concerned after being vaccinated and are around vulnerable people you should still wear a mask.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 minutes ago, Xenos said:

ET answered this better than I can. But short answer is that Delta happened and not enough people got vaccinated. When they made all those directions you listed, the vaccine worked exactly like it should against the original strain and even Alpha. Delta was only in 1% of the population at the time.

Reasonable, but isn't it known that viruses can mutate?

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

18 minutes ago, ET80 said:

As a LEO, do you pull over someone going 47 in a 45? That's speeding... are you enforcing it?

As stated above, you don't pull over someone going 2mph over the speed limit, so you are implying "you can go beyond the speed limit as long as it's not excessive" by your choice on enforcement.

I don't disagree with this - but there are those who do, and who are willing to make enough of a stink about it to get those in power to make changes, even if the changes are detremental.

Actually, it depends, but the standard is always safety and reasonableness. 

I guess the part in bold is what I've suspected. Thanks for the conversation today!

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

13 minutes ago, incognito_man said:

The message has ALWAYS been clear: if you're concerned after being vaccinated and are around vulnerable people you should still wear a mask.

Knowing how viruses work, that's horrible messaging. It shouldn't be "if you're concerned", but "please continue to wear a mask to protect vulnerable people".

[incognito_man]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Knowing how viruses work, that's horrible messaging. It shouldn't be "if you're concerned", but "please continue to wear a mask to protect vulnerable people".

That was exactly the message the entire time...

[ET80]

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Actually, it depends, but the standard is always safety and reasonableness. 

I'd say the same applies here. I'm vaccinated, but I still wear my mask everywhere and only take it off when eating or drinking. I really have no plans on changing, either. I know I can take it off, I don't have to listen to the speed limit - but I will nonetheless.

It's not that I don't trust the medicine or science - I don't trust people, at ALL.

6 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

I guess the part in bold is what I've suspected. Thanks for the conversation today!

Science such as this shouldn't be so divisive, but it's where we find ourselves right now. 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

Science such as this shouldn't be so divisive, but it's where we find ourselves right now. 

Getting this tattooed on my lower back.

[Xenos]

44 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Reasonable, but isn't it known that viruses can mutate?

Yeah but it doesn’t always mean that they mutate for the worse. The CDC probably was also trying to use a different tact to get more people to get vaccinated. In this case, if the ultimate goal is the vaccine, then it makes sense to remove the final barrier for those who were fully vaccinated (indoor masking). Unfortunately, it seemed that all the incentives didn’t work. In hindsight, the CDC should have tied removing indoor masking to the vaccination rate. Though even with that, I think it was inevitable that we get here where only seeing people dying and mandates increases the vaccination rate.

[G]

2 hours ago, JohnChimpo said:

It was obvious to me well before reading your posts why politics are not allowed here, but by all means, keep posting in here. I have no use for an echo chamber either. Disagreement is good, as long as it’s civil.

Excellent post and I agree so I do need to watch that because I think civil discussion is needed. However I also understand human behavior of both myself and others. I need to take more PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY so that I may continue in the discussion. Was warned I'll probably get banned but that doesn't make things better. It's also not my problem because I'm the target audience of who they are trying to convince so insults and ignoring does the opposite. It's been less than 24 hours and this thread is not only covid related but I think a needed discussion of society and how people interact. I don't have social media except this (if it's SM) and Youtube. I think social media has broken down people's ability to communicate. Unless 'Communication' (my definition: The ability to send and receive signals so that the message is understood) isn't the desire as much as it's something else...