Sell me on a QB

[dll2000]

2 minutes ago, WindyCity said:

I think at some point his rookie year he is your starter. I do not think you need to put any parameters on it.

The minute you draft a 1st round QB the focus becomes their development. Pace and Nagy will be judged on how good the QB is more than wins and loses.

Reps are currency in football.   You have only so much time by CBA or rules at every level of football.  

Every rep that goes to someone is an investment in that person and unlike market economy is limited by a set pie of time. 

Every rep going to Dalton is a rep Fields or Mac doesn’t get.   

[dll2000]

1 minute ago, dll2000 said:

Reps are currency in football.   You have only so much time by CBA or rules at every level of football.  

Every rep that goes to someone is an investment in that person and unlike market economy is limited by a set pie of time. 

Every rep going to Dalton is a rep Fields or Mac doesn’t get.   

Football practice is scheduled to minute to maximize reps.  

Mike Leech revolutionized practice in many ways squeezing more quality reps into a limited time.  He is a nut, but most innovative mind on football of last 25 years.   Only guy willing to fail and experiment.  Really only way to move forward or discover new things.    

[dll2000]

I don’t really think it matters who Bears draft unless he is transcendent talent whose coach doesn’t matter.  

Nagy has not shown me he is good at developing players.

OL made big improvements towards end of last year.   That is something.   First offensive position group to do so under Nagy.

 

[AZBearsFan]

Just now, dll2000 said:

I don’t really think it matters who Bears draft unless he is transcendent talent whose coach doesn’t matter.  

Nagy has not shown me he is good at developing players.

OL made big improvements towards end of last year.   That is something.   First offensive position group to do so under Nagy.

For what it’s worth, until we see what Mitch can or can’t do post-Nagy it’s at least somewhat of an assumption that Nagy didn’t get the most out of him that he could. I don’t say that because Nagy has given me a ton by which to be inspired (I’m not as down on him as some are but certainly am not staning for him either), but it’s possible Mitch just sucks really bad too and what we saw was really the best he has to offer after 3 years of Nagy trying to squeeze water out of a turnip. Judging by the lack of any market for Mitch at all to be a starter this offseason the front offices across rest of the league sure didn’t seem to think it was a Nagy issue, or at least not just a Nagy issue. As the HC he’s ultimately responsible for everyone’s development, but he’s most intimately involved at QB. That’s his baby. He’s heavily reliant on position coaches elsewhere, especially on defense. 

[dll2000]

18 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

For what it’s worth, until we see what Mitch can or can’t do post-Nagy it’s at least somewhat of an assumption that Nagy didn’t get the most out of him that he could. I don’t say that because Nagy has given me a ton by which to be inspired (I’m not as down on him as some are but certainly am not staning for him either), but it’s possible Mitch just sucks really bad too and what we saw was really the best he has to offer after 3 years of Nagy trying to squeeze water out of a turnip. Judging by the lack of any market for Mitch at all to be a starter this offseason the front offices across rest of the league sure didn’t seem to think it was a Nagy issue, or at least not just a Nagy issue. As the HC he’s ultimately responsible for everyone’s development, but he’s most intimately involved at QB. That’s his baby. He’s heavily reliant on position coaches elsewhere, especially on defense. 

I think way he runs practices effects position coaches and I strongly suspect he is overruling position coaches at times on starting positions. 

I am not talking about only Mitch.   Most QBs fail even with good coaching.   But I have seen WR, OL and TE regression or stagnation under his regime.  And conversely I have not seen improvement.

Veteran WRs came in good.   Mooney came in good.   Daniels regressed until this year.   Leno has regressed.    TEs have been a black hole or regression or stagnation.  Kmet may have learned from Graham as he seemed to improve.  

[soulman]

18 hours ago, MonserinNC said:

My whole thing with the Bears is that we full on blew it with Trubisky at #2, regardless of the allegations, Watson always should have been the pic.

The Bears are a .500 type of team and will be drafting in that 15-25 range for a while.

We already lost Fuller and will continue to lose players year by year..... really our only chance is hitting on a 2nd, 3rd round QB, maybe even 4th or 5th

That's why I say let's do it....try to hit on Mond or Trask....helll, Dalton was 2nd round....that's pretty much our path when you whiff on #2 overall so badly

Can't really disagree.  This is why I said we need to pay far more attention to developing our own QBs which to me entails hiring and holding onto top shelf OCs and QB coaches who have developed successful NFL QBs.  We've completely failed at developing our own QBs.

As much as I would love to have Russell Wilson digesting his contract even with an extension and restructured may cost us an ability to sign or keep top talent elsewhere just as signing Dalton for far less cost us an ability to keep Fuller.  We needed his cap space.

If Pace could be 99% certain that spending his future high picks to get a rookie QB now who could become his franchise QB then he should do it but I doubt he can be that certain and his previous choice causes doubt in many of us.  Plus he's unlikely to impact 2021 anyway.

Seems to me the smarter move would be to use the higher picks we do have on filling needs at CB and OT, two positions that are very expensive to "buy" in FA, with younger players on their rookie deals.  And unless Pace plans to get a new deal done with ARob then WR has to be a priority as well.  IMHO drafting a QB out of sheer desperation rarely works so it may be far better to wait for a better shot at one.

Edited April 20, 2021 by soulman

[WindyCity]

3 minutes ago, soulman said:

Can't really disagree.  This is why I said we need to pay far more attention to developing our own QBs which to me entails hiring and holding onto top shelf OCs and QB coaches who have developed successful NFL QBs.  We've completely failed at developing our own QBs.

As much as I would love to have Russell Wilson digesting his contract even with an extension and restructured may cost us an ability to sign or keep top talent elsewhere just as signing Dalton for far less cost us an ability to keep Fuller.  We needed his cap space.

If Pace could be 99% certain that spending his future high picks to get a rookie QB now who could become his franchise QB then he should do it but I doubt he can be that certain and his previous choice causes doubt in many of us.  Plus he's unlikely to impact 2021 anyway.

Seems to me the smarter move would be to use the higher picks we do have on filling needs at CB and OT, two positions that are very expensive to "buy" in FA, with younger players on their rookie deals.  And unless Pace plans to get a new deal done with ARob then WR has to be a priority as well.  IMHO drafting a QB out of sheer desperation rarely works so it may be far better to wait for a better shot at one.

And in 2022 we are in the exact same position we are right now. A team held back by mediocre QB play, but not picking high enough to get a top QB without trading up.

 

[WindyCity]

13 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I think way he runs practices effects position coaches and I strongly suspect he is overruling position coaches at times on starting positions. 

I am not talking about only Mitch.   Most QBs fail even with good coaching.   But I have seen WR, OL and TE regression or stagnation under his regime.  And conversely I have not seen improvement.

Veteran WRs came in good.   Mooney came in good.   Daniels regressed until this year.   Leno has regressed.    TEs have been a black hole or regression or stagnation.  Kmet may have learned from Graham as he seemed to improve.  

I am not sure I blame Nagu for a lack of development on offense, the talent isn't good.

Leno had a great 2018 under Nagy and has regressed because he is a mediocre player and mediocre players cannot maintain high level play by definition.

Miller isn't smart. No amount of coaching is going to make him smarter and mature.

Mitch sucked. The league told us he sucked when he never even got a chance to compete for a job.

 

The issue is the talent isn't very good.

[soulman]

5 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

This is my point tho...he doesn't help you win now so as much as having stability would be amazing your not going to get that once Pace & Nagy are gone...your then asking a new GM & HC to work with one of these guys which might rule some candidates who want nothing to do with that QB out as well as make that now 2nd year QB learn another scheme regardless of who we bring in...where is the stability in that? 

Great point too.  Going "all in" on a QB should also mean that Pace and Nagy are locks to be around for at least another 4 years while we get to find out whether or not this QB pick is any better than the last one. Otherwise we're just repeating our last mistake of taking a QB before hiring the HC and staff who are entrusted with turning him into Mr. Franchise QB.  Do we really want to do that again?

So.....for those of you clamoring to spend big to trade up you should also be required to sign an affidavit saying you will not call for either Pace or Nagy to be fired for another 4 years because once again a GM, HC, and a QB will in all likelihood be joined at the hip for the duration.  I'm not saying don't do it but I am saying if that's your buy in than you're buying the whole package it comes with.  JMHO

[soulman]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

If you trade up big for Fields or Mack he is your starter from day one.   He gets 95% of reps.  Anything else is stupid.  

And what are the chances of that happening now that Pace has once again invested in a vet QB and declared him the 2021 starter?

There seem to be more reasons for not going big and doing it right than there are for doing it.

[WindyCity]

28 minutes ago, soulman said:

Great point too.  Going "all in" on a QB should also mean that Pace and Nagy are locks to be around for at least another 4 years while we get to find out whether or not this QB pick is any better than the last one. Otherwise we're just repeating our last mistake of taking a QB before hiring the HC and staff who are entrusted with turning him into Mr. Franchise QB.  Do we really want to do that again?

So.....for those of you clamoring to spend big to trade up you should also be required to sign an affidavit saying you will not call for either Pace or Nagy to be fired for another 4 years because once again a GM, HC, and a QB will in all likelihood be joined at the hip for the duration.  I'm not saying don't do it but I am saying if that's your buy in than you're buying the whole package it comes with.  JMHO

They will not get 4 years. It buys them 2022 for sure if the QB they pick looks like something.

[soulman]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

I don’t really think it matters who Bears draft unless he is transcendent talent whose coach doesn’t matter.  

Nagy has not shown me he is good at developing players.

OL made big improvements towards end of last year.   That is something.   First offensive position group to do so under Nagy.

 

And with accepting this we also have to accept that we've made it even more difficult to get "that guy" without having the top one or two picks in any draft.  If we draft yet another rookie QB badly in need of being coached and developed into a top NFL starter we're doing it under the same HC who failed to get it done with Mitch.  So.....where does that leaves us three years from now?

I see a whole lot of posts (mostly Windy's) that assume any QB we trade up for will become the guy who takes us from mediocrity to a Super Bowl and I can't emphasize enough the faulty reasoning behind this.  We had the #2 overall pick in 2017 and three highly rated QBs to choose from and took the one whose failed to get even close to living up to his draft status.  Can it happen again?

Yeah, sure as hell it can.

Whether it's Fields, Jones, or Lance there is absolutely no guarantee that any of those guys will blossom into a franchise QB under a HC and an offensive staff who couldn't even manage to make Mitch Trubisky marginally consistent enough to win games himself or even produce more than 17 points per game on average.  How much of that was Mitch and how much was Nagy we still don't know.

So let's not pretend like all we need to do is trade up big time for one of those guys and magically all of our problems are solved.

[dll2000]

 

 

21 minutes ago, soulman said:

And what are the chances of that happening now that Pace has once again invested in a vet QB and declared him the 2021 starter?

There seem to be more reasons for not going big and doing it right than there are for doing it.

Bottom line is I don't think you have lame duck coaches/GMs. 

That combination is reckless and stupid.  They can set you back 5 years in one offseason.   Much more if they wreck things to point that you can't get best replacements to accept job.

Would you want Texans job right now?   Those guys careers are toast.   Granted they took job thinking they had either a franchise QB or a crap load of draft picks coming with a trade.   They really held those cards too long.   I am on record as make the blockbuster trade immediately in a bidding war.  Texans fans threw tomatoes at me.   

Imagine if Texans were picking GM and coach now.   Good luck.  You would have to give a 10 year contract.   

Now they have virtually no chance to succeed.

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

1 minute ago, WindyCity said:

They will not get 4 years. It buys them 2022 for sure if the QB they pick looks like something.

And again Windy you substitute personal opinion for fact without even weighing the possibilities and their likelihood of being true.

Just because all you'd be willing to give them is 2022 doesn't mean that's all GMcC and Teddy Bears are willing to do when it comes time to sit down with them and their agents over contract talks.  GMcC really hates firing people otherwise Phillips would've been long gone.

If GMcC is gonna allow them to potentially trade 1st round picks in 2021, 2022, and 2023 for a move up to the top 5 do you honestly believe he'll be looking to replace them anytime soon?

Well of course YOU do but logic and common sense would say differently.

Whatta ya' gonna do if they do trade up for your high upside favorite, start him in 2021, and we only win 4-5 games?  Or even 7 or 8?  From your posting that appears to be what you would do in order to have a shot at winning big with a rookie QB when the odds would say that isn't all that likely to happen.

Are you gonna be content to give it more time or will you keep campaigning for Pace's firing just as you have for the last couple of years?  How 'bout Nagy?  Should he be gone too?  I can't connect with your kind of thinking at all and I don't even wanna try.

[soulman]

2 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

 

 

Bottom line is I don't think you have lame duck coaches/GMs. 

That combination is reckless and stupid.  They can set you back 5 years in one offseason.   Much more if they wreck things to point that you can't get best replacements to accept job.

Would you want Texans job right now?   Those guys careers are toast.   Granted they took job thinking they had either a franchise QB or a crap load of draft picks coming with a trade.   They really held those cards too long.   I am on record as make the blockbuster trade immediately in a bidding war.  Texans fans threw tomatoes at me.   

Imagine if Texans were picking GM and coach now.   Good luck.  You would have to give a 10 year contract.   

Now they have virtually no chance to succeed.

 

 

 

 

This goes to my point about GMcC allowing Pace to spend three 1st round picks plus to trade up to the top 5 or even two 1st round picks to get between 6-10.  I can't think of a single reason for doing that if you plan to fire your GM and HC after 2021 if they don't reach and win in the playoffs.  If it happens I'd take it as a sure sign Pace and Nagy will both be extended beyond 2021.

The Bears had a hard enough time trying to attract top GM talent when they hired Pace and IMHO they will continue to have that same problem for as long as Ted Phillips is President/CEO.  So whose gonna believe GMcC will allow Pace to trade away his 2022 and 2023 1st round picks then fire him and try to hire a new GM to build with handing him the keys to that mess?

The hiring of Phil Emery and his hiring of Marc Trestman over other more qualified prospects did set us back 5 years and it did cause problems with hiring a new GM and along with him a new HC.  The Fox era was an even bigger disaster.  IMHO trading away multiple 1st round picks for a QB who may end up playing under a new GM and HC makes absolutely no sense at all.

If GMcC has both Pace and Nagy on a short leash in no way would I as an owner allow them to mortgage future drafts that could handicap a new GM and HC.  That would be even more evidence that GMcC and Teddy Bears have no idea how to run their football team.