AFlaccoSeagulls Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Carson Wentz Russell Wilson Tom Brady Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 17 minutes ago, Darth Pees said: Carson Wentz Russell Wilson Tom Brady Wilson is not going to win it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Feels like it is a 2 person race between Wentz and Brady ATM, though Goff could make a dark horse surge as they have a ridiculous stretch, including a match-up against the Eagles, coming up and if he excels/Rams continue winning, then he could find himself as the front runner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 10 hours ago, Raves said: That argument never got Brees the MVP even though he deserved it over other players with his stats as well. How often did Brees get a top 2 seed while carrying the bad defense? Brees often had the stats but not the record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Carson Wentz is the MVP if the season ended today. Tom Brady would be my #2. Someone mentioned Russell Wilson and he more than likely will not win the award, but he should be in some kind of consideration. In a literal sense, Wilson might just be the MVP because without him the Seahawks probably wouldn't even have a winning record. The offensive line is horrid and the running game is non-existent. The Seahawks might be the worst offense in the league if you took every starting QB off of their team right now. I feel the same way about Deshaun Watson as well. The Texans literally are terrible without him. When Watson was playing, he elevated that entire team and they were in playoff contention. Without him, they're one of the worst teams in the entire league. Watson wouldn't have won the MVP award, but he was one of the most valuable players in the league in a literal sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Just now, Yin-Yang said: How often did Brees get a top 2 seed while carrying the bad defense? Brees often had the stats but not the record. I don't really call the 14th ranked ppg defense, at 21.7 ppg, a bad defense. If the Saints defense had given up only that number of points the Saints would've been arguably the best team in the NFL the past 3 years. Yards don't mean anything for how bad a defense is if they keep the opponent out of the end zone. For comparison, the Saints over the last 3 years have given up, 26.5 ppg (5th worst) with 384 ypg (2nd worst), 29.8 ppg (worst) with 413.8 ypg (2nd worst), 28.4 ppg(2nd worst) with 375.4 ypg(6th worst), while scoring 25.1 ppg (9th), 25.5 ppg (8th), and 29.3 ppg (2nd) respectively. The Patriots are currently scoring 28.6 ppg (4th) while giving up 21.7 ppg (14th) as I said. Their defense is far from "bad" in terms of giving up points. The Saints Super Bowl winning team gave up 357.8 ypg (25th) 21.3 ppg (20th), but also had 403.8 ypg (1st) and 31.9 ppg (1st), a year where he had the stats, a dominant team, and a bad defense, but still didn't win the MVP. So really how bad is the Patriots defense if they are still middle of the pack in points per game? A true bad defense would still be giving up a lot of points as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 @Raves I don’t really have a desire to get into another PPG discussion after that other thread about defenses winning championships. Your statement was that the argument for Brady over Wentz being quality of defense/run game wasn’t enough because Brees never got it. My point was that Brees seldom had the record that most MVP candidates require. If you’re referencing 2011 as a counter point, then you ought to look back at the season Rodgers had along with the one of Stafford, Manning, and Brady. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 Just now, Yin-Yang said: @Raves I don’t really have a desire to get into another PPG discussion after that other thread about defenses winning championships. Your statement was that the argument for Brady over Wentz being quality of defense/run game wasn’t enough because Brees never got it. My point was that Brees seldom had the record that most MVP candidates require. If you’re referencing 2011 as a count point, then you ought to look back at the season Rodgers had along with the one of Stafford, Manning, and Brady. My counter point is the 2009 season where the Saints had the record and the bad defense, actually a worse defense than Brady's defense this year, also I wasn't a part of the discussion about defenses winning championships so I wouldn't know how that went, but PPG is a much better indicator of a defense than YPG is all I'm going to say. Though if we want to use 2011 as the season, which seems to be your point more than mine, Rodgers had a great year as well, but Brees season was just as worthy of the MVP based on his stats, setting the record at that point for passing yards, passing yards per game, leading the NFL in passing TDs, though the Packers actually had a worse defense than the Saints that year both in PPG and YPG. I think that might've been the one year where although I felt Brees probably deserved it, Rodgers getting it didn't upset me. It was mostly the years that Brady/Manning got it with Brees having better stats though 1-2 wins difference on their teams. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric5280 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 23 minutes ago, Raves said: My counter point is the 2009 season where the Saints had the record and the bad defense, actually a worse defense than Brady's defense this year, also I wasn't a part of the discussion about defenses winning championships so I wouldn't know how that went, but PPG is a much better indicator of a defense than YPG is all I'm going to say. Though if we want to use 2011 as the season, which seems to be your point more than mine, Rodgers had a great year as well, but Brees season was just as worthy of the MVP based on his stats, setting the record at that point for passing yards, passing yards per game, leading the NFL in passing TDs, though the Packers actually had a worse defense than the Saints that year both in PPG and YPG. I think that might've been the one year where although I felt Brees probably deserved it, Rodgers getting it didn't upset me. It was mostly the years that Brady/Manning got it with Brees having better stats though 1-2 wins difference on their teams. Not sure why you lumped Brady in that last sentence. Brady won the MVP in 2007 and 2010.. No way Brees deserved it over him either year. 2007 Brady 4806 yards, 50tds, 8ints 117.2 passer rating 16-0 record 2007 Brees 4423 yards, 28tds, 18ints, 89.2 passer rating 7-9 record 2010 Brady 3900 yards, 36tds, 4ints, 111.0 passer rating 14-2 record 2010 Brees 4620 yards, 33tds, 22ints 90.9 passer rating 11-5 record And as for Manning, the only year Manning won where Brees could have any consideration over him was in 2009. 2003, 04 & 13 Manning had clearly better years than Brees and Brees was only 8-8 in 2008 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lancerman Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 14 minutes ago, Raves said: My counter point is the 2009 season where the Saints had the record and the bad defense, actually a worse defense than Brady's defense this year, also I wasn't a part of the discussion about defenses winning championships so I wouldn't know how that went, but PPG is a much better indicator of a defense than YPG is all I'm going to say. Though if we want to use 2011 as the season, which seems to be your point more than mine, Rodgers had a great year as well, but Brees season was just as worthy of the MVP based on his stats, setting the record at that point for passing yards, passing yards per game, leading the NFL in passing TDs, though the Packers actually had a worse defense than the Saints that year both in PPG and YPG. I think that might've been the one year where although I felt Brees probably deserved it, Rodgers getting it didn't upset me. It was mostly the years that Brady/Manning got it with Brees having better stats though 1-2 wins difference on their teams. The issue with Brees was Manning existed and he was leading a team to what could have been an undefeated record. Name value mattered a bit in that one and Manning had it and I think the voters had a toss up and liked the optics of Manning getting an unprecedented 4th. I think Brady vs Wentz essentially comes down to -how close the records are -how the narrative plays out, because I can see Wentz getting the "his team and defense are getting it done" while the Brady defense and injuries at WR will be used to prop up Brady. -how much they like the optics of 40 year old Brady winning his third MVP. Especially after Brady was passed over the last two years by Ryan and Newton having peak years and then crashing back to Earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric5280 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 I think at this point it's clearly Wentz #1 and Brady #2. Still a long way to go. I feel bad for Watson because I think he was going to run away with it prior to his injury. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 2 minutes ago, eric5280 said: Not sure why you lumped Brady in that last sentence. Brady won the MVP in 2007 and 2010.. No way Brees deserved it over him either year. 2007 Brady 4806 yards, 50tds, 8ints 117.2 passer rating 16-0 record 2007 Brees 4423 yards, 28tds, 18ints, 89.2 passer rating 7-9 record 2010 Brady 3900 yards, 36tds, 4ints, 111.0 passer rating 14-2 record 2010 Brees 4620 yards, 33tds, 22ints 90.9 passer rating 11-5 record And as for Manning, the only year Manning won where Brees could have any consideration over him was in 2009 but he finished 8-8 and a 500 QB isnt' winning it. 2003, 04, 09 & 13 Manning had clearly better years than Brees. Maybe it was someone else other than Brady I was thinking of then, though I'm fairly certain most years Brees finished behind Brady in voting even when he shouldn't have. How did Manning have clearly better stats than Brees? Peyton Manning, QB IND 393 571 68.8 4,500 7.88 80 33 16 10 99.9 281 Drew Brees, QB NO 363 514 70.6 4,388 8.54 75 34 11 20 109.6 293 That looks like Manning was behind Brees, definitely at least in comparison to both the 2011 Rodgers vs Brees season you wanted to mention. 2013, can't argue that one, Manning had a brilliant season all around that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 21 minutes ago, Raves said: My counter point is the 2009 season where the Saints had the record and the bad defense, actually a worse defense than Brady's defense this year, also I wasn't a part of the discussion about defenses winning championships so I wouldn't know how that went, but PPG is a much better indicator of a defense than YPG is all I'm going to say. Though if we want to use 2011 as the season, which seems to be your point more than mine, Rodgers had a great year as well, but Brees season was just as worthy of the MVP based on his stats, setting the record at that point for passing yards, passing yards per game, leading the NFL in passing TDs, though the Packers actually had a worse defense than the Saints that year both in PPG and YPG. I think that might've been the one year where although I felt Brees probably deserved it, Rodgers getting it didn't upset me. It was mostly the years that Brady/Manning got it with Brees having better stats though 1-2 wins difference on their teams. That defense had 39 takeaways and 8 in the playoffs (I know the latter is is irrelevant to the MVP discussion). Also gave up less PPG than this year’s NE defense. But again, I’m only highlighting how you said the “carrying a defense” narrative doesn’t matter because of Brees. Brees’ one instance of a great record and the stats that put him above peers was when he had a defense that took the ball 39 times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raves Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 9 minutes ago, lancerman said: The issue with Brees was Manning existed and he was leading a team to what could have been an undefeated record. Name value mattered a bit in that one and Manning had it and I think the voters had a toss up and liked the optics of Manning getting an unprecedented 4th. I think Brady vs Wentz essentially comes down to -how close the records are -how the narrative plays out, because I can see Wentz getting the "his team and defense are getting it done" while the Brady defense and injuries at WR will be used to prop up Brady. -how much they like the optics of 40 year old Brady winning his third MVP. Especially after Brady was passed over the last two years by Ryan and Newton having peak years and then crashing back to Earth. Agree on all points. I think Wentz will likely have the stronger record, the only real argument Brady has is his WRs being injured, his defense isn't nearly that bad IMO, YPG < PPG, and I agree the 40 y/o narrative plays as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eric5280 Posted November 13, 2017 Share Posted November 13, 2017 1 minute ago, Raves said: Maybe it was someone else other than Brady I was thinking of then, though I'm fairly certain most years Brees finished behind Brady in voting even when he shouldn't have. How did Manning have clearly better stats than Brees? Peyton Manning, QB IND 393 571 68.8 4,500 7.88 80 33 16 10 99.9 281 Drew Brees, QB NO 363 514 70.6 4,388 8.54 75 34 11 20 109.6 293 That looks like Manning was behind Brees, definitely at least in comparison to both the 2011 Rodgers vs Brees season you wanted to mention. 2013, can't argue that one, Manning had a brilliant season all around that year. My apologies, I mixed up stats from 2008 and 2009.. Basically 2009 is the only year Brees had a valid claim over Manning. Brees was 500 in 2008 that won't ever get it done in an MVP conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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