Training Camp Thread......

[soulman]

3 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

I think this one is a bit harsh to put at Pace's door...he drafted two tackles with Jenkins seen as a 1st rounder and pro ready OT...we were all pretty thrilled with the pick...injuries happen and you simply can't stockpile talent in the NFL because of the cap and the demand around the league...especially at the OT position.

But Mike.  He drafted two college RT one of whom he planned to make a LT out of even though neither had played much LT in college.  Fair enough but why leave yourself wide open to being questioned if neither can play LT and you shipped the one you had off to save cap cost.

The one he wanted to make a LT out of also had multiple back injuries in college even missing his final three games because of one and.....Pace KNEW THIS when he drafted him yet still failed to protect himself against Jenkins injury by keeping Leno around for another year as insurance.  And Jenkins is by no means an NFL ready LT nor is Larry Borom.

Furthermore he signed yet another RT in the offseason (Wilkinson) guaranteeing him nearly $1 mil when the guy struggled to play RT here in Denver so badly the Broncos flat out released him so Pace had to sign Peters costing himself another $1.5 mil to come in and put out the fire at LT while we see of Borom can handle LT any better.

So he's spent $2.5 mil on a failure and a 39 year old warrior whose best days are well in his past.  Was bringing Leno back at a lower cost ever considered.  He's only guaranteed $3 mil by Washington?  Probably not because he figured Wilkinson could play LT and he was cheaper. Never underpay for insurance.  You never know when you might need it badly.

So harsh or not yeah, I'm laying this mess right at Pace's doorstep.  He has horribly ignored or mishandled the OL for his entire career in Chicago.

[soulman]

3 hours ago, dll2000 said:

He should have drafted at least 2 more OTs in mid to early rounds over the years and probably should have signed a big name FA OT at some point failing that - prior to this season.

How much different might things be now if the money Pace spent on Quinn had been spent on a LT instead and that wouldn't have precluded him from still drafting Jenkins as a RT and Borom as a potential Swing OT.

Pace seems to have had this vision of pass rush dominance by having both Quinn and Mack yet even if Quinn comes up with 10 sacks and 15 hits this year it's hard to me to believe a committee of his other edge guys couldn't come close to doing the same.

Why draft a guy like Gipson unless you believe he can become an effective edge rusher?

Then on top of that we also spent another $2.85 mil on Attaochu just in case Quinn can't bounce back or he needs more time off to heal his owies.  So far he's been a $30 mil waste.

I'll be honest.  Most days I don't get Pace's theories and plan regarding personnel decisions at all.  If you had a lock down corner in Fuller and drafted another highly ranked CB in 2020 why also spend the kind of money on Quinn?  It's Quinn's deal that cost us Fuller.  Who have we gotten more out of?

So signing Quinn has potentially cost us a FA LT we could have used instead and probably Fuller as well leaving two gaps that needed filling AND we still needed to sign another edge rusher and sign a couple more as UDFA.  Like I keep saying.  Pace's goofs tend to offset his scores more often than not.

Edited August 25, 2021 by soulman

[beardown3231]

PREACH

 

[dll2000]

36 minutes ago, soulman said:

How much different might things be now if the money Pace spent on Quinn had been spent on a LT instead and that wouldn't have precluded him from still drafting Jenkins as a RT and Borom as a potential Swing OT.

Pace seems to have had this vision of pass rush dominance by having both Quinn and Mack yet even if Quinn comes up with 10 sacks and 15 hits this year it's hard to me to believe a committee of his other edge guys couldn't come close to doing the same.

Why draft a guy like Gipson unless you believe he can become an effective edge rusher?

Then on top of that we also spent another $2.85 mil on Attaochu just in case Quinn can't bounce back or he needs more time off to heal his owies.  So far he's been a $30 mil waste.

I'll be honest.  Most days I don't get Pace's theories and plan regarding personnel decisions at all.  If you had a lock down corner in Fuller and drafted another highly ranked CB in 2020 why also spend the kind of money on Quinn?  It's Quinn's deal that cost us Fuller.  Who have we gotten more out of?

So signing Quinn has potentially cost us a FA LT we could have used instead and probably Fuller as well leaving two gaps that needed filling AND we still needed to sign another edge rusher and sign a couple more as UDFA.  Like I keep saying.  Pace's goofs tend to offset his scores more often than not.

Quinn was a gamble that hasn't panned out.   He was arguably best pass rusher in league in Dallas year prior so I can see the draw. 

But Bears 1) played him out of position (which everyone and their brother pointed out at time of signing) and 2) he was older and many big FAs don't play well on 3rd K because they get lazy or hurt or don't care or whatever.

Obviously that money could have been better spent in numerous other ways; new OT, Fuller, Hicks, Roquan, ARob, Nichols, whatever.

 

 

 

[dll2000]

30 minutes ago, beardown3231 said:

PREACH

 

The talking heads are starting to figure out Fields isn't getting the good reps in practice and not liking it ... wait until the reps are zero and Bears are losing, LOL.

Its like they don't cover the NFL for a living and don't know how an NFL practice works.

In any event fans will start learning of it soon too from listening to newly awakened talking heads who are cluing into this.     

Nagy is such a putz for not seeing the hurricane of fan discontent soon coming his way.   Just a tropical storm now - will be category 5 soon.

Get a clue man!  I have been trying to warn you.  But no, you don't want to read my thoughts on a minor forum.

 

 

 

 

 

[soulman]

49 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Quinn was a gamble that hasn't panned out.   He was arguably best pass rusher in league in Dallas year prior so I can see the draw.

To me that was less the point then the order of need that may have been ignored in order to sign him especially given that he played most of his career (the most successful part) as a 4-3 DE.

[Madmike90]

5 hours ago, dll2000 said:

Well I don't know anything about reports ... but facts are he had a known back issue late in college and then needed surgery a handful of months later.

 

That's the point thought...he didn't have known back issues...one reporter said he heard about issues...then about 10 said there was no flags before the draft at all...like I said the timing of that one report just doesn't sit right with me.

[dll2000]

1 hour ago, Madmike90 said:

That's the point thought...he didn't have known back issues...one reporter said he heard about issues...then about 10 said there was no flags before the draft at all...like I said the timing of that one report just doesn't sit right with me.

I thought he missed games in college due to back pain.  

[Madmike90]

58 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

I thought he missed games in college due to back pain.  

He missed games but it was nothing that was flagged in any medical...guys can miss times but unless it is something that is constant then it shouldn't be a huge issue.

[Epyon]

Gonna jump on this train again since I was high on him coming out in the draft..... but it's looking pretty likely Andy Isabella is gonna be cut in Arizona.... I'd 100% waiver claim him as that #6 WR.... tons of speed, tons of collegiate production, and can likely kick return as well.... particularly since none of our other depth WR seem to want to claim the job themselves.

Young guy with high WR upside that pretty desperately needs a change of scenery.... who can also potentially return kicks, and has the dynamic type speed to backup our injury prone speedsters ahead of him (that are also shorter term FA rentals)

[abstract_thought]

20 minutes ago, Epyon said:

Gonna jump on this train again since I was high on him coming out in the draft..... but it's looking pretty likely Andy Isabella is gonna be cut in Arizona.... I'd 100% waiver claim him as that #6 WR.... tons of speed, tons of collegiate production, and can likely kick return as well.... particularly since none of our other depth WR seem to want to claim the job themselves.

Young guy with high WR upside that pretty desperately needs a change of scenery.... who can also potentially return kicks, and has the dynamic type speed to backup our injury prone speedsters ahead of him (that are also shorter term FA rentals)

I liked him too but the Bears already have a few WR like him and he's done very little to impress in Arizona.

[Epyon]

34 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

I liked him too but the Bears already have a few WR like him and he's done very little to impress in Arizona.

The difference is, he was coming into AZ as a high draft pick expected to be basically what Mooney is right now....

For us, the expectation would only be that he can beat out our #6 and run fast.

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, Epyon said:

The difference is, he was coming into AZ as a high draft pick expected to be basically what Mooney is right now....

For us, the expectation would only be that he can beat out our #6 and run fast.

And he isn't Wims. You had me there alone.

 

[soulman]

9 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

That's the point thought...he didn't have known back issues...one reporter said he heard about issues...then about 10 said there was no flags before the draft at all...like I said the timing of that one report just doesn't sit right with me.

Hate to keep opposing you on this Mike.....but I must.  LOL

That one reporter was Dan Pompei was has graduated far beyond his former roles as a Chicago Bears Beat guy.  He's awfully well connected in NFL circles and he's telling us teams were aware of Jenkins multiple back injuries, and his having opted out of his last three college games because of them.  In addition as a national writer Pompei is basically a neutral source of information.

The other info we've been fed came from Brad Biggs who is currently a Chicago Tribune Bears Beat guy with a long and established reputation of defending the team and therefore his ability to get inside far enough to ask questions of the decision makers.  I would not and will not necessarily trust Biggs info to be neutral.  He will not bite the hand that feeds him and never has.

Now lets look at the rest.  Jenkins obviously has a back problem serious enough to require surgery.  I can't buy into any thinking that says this is completely new and it was never a risk before he was drafted.  Not when he's had multiple back injuries already.  Of course that's the story Nagy has given but mysteriously Ryan Pace has been mum on the matter.  Why is that?

Other teams will not always tell the truth either because doing so would disclose their own draft strategies.  So what we're left with is this. Jenkins had a solid 1st round rating and ranked as either the 3rd or 4th best OT prospect yet he fell into round 2 and we trade up for him at #39.  A lesser ranked OT went before him in round 1 and 3 more after him in round 2.

Ask yourself how much farther he may have fallen had we not traded up for him?  We don't really know but I'm pretty sure there were teams who would not have drafted him that high on the offhand chance that his back issues were more serious than thought or chronic.  Any back issues and any back surgeries for an OL or DL are never a good sign.  They can be career ending.

[Madmike90]

3 hours ago, soulman said:

Hate to keep opposing you on this Mike.....but I must.  LOL

That one reporter was Dan Pompei was has graduated far beyond his former roles as a Chicago Bears Beat guy.  He's awfully well connected in NFL circles and he's telling us teams were aware of Jenkins multiple back injuries, and his having opted out of his last three college games because of them.  In addition as a national writer Pompei is basically a neutral source of information.

The other info we've been fed came from Brad Biggs who is currently a Chicago Tribune Bears Beat guy with a long and established reputation of defending the team and therefore his ability to get inside far enough to ask questions of the decision makers.  I would not and will not necessarily trust Biggs info to be neutral.  He will not bite the hand that feeds him and never has.

Now lets look at the rest.  Jenkins obviously has a back problem serious enough to require surgery.  I can't buy into any thinking that says this is completely new and it was never a risk before he was drafted.  Not when he's had multiple back injuries already.  Of course that's the story Nagy has given but mysteriously Ryan Pace has been mum on the matter.  Why is that?

Other teams will not always tell the truth either because doing so would disclose their own draft strategies.  So what we're left with is this. Jenkins had a solid 1st round rating and ranked as either the 3rd or 4th best OT prospect yet he fell into round 2 and we trade up for him at #39.  A lesser ranked OT went before him in round 1 and 3 more after him in round 2.

Ask yourself how much farther he may have fallen had we not traded up for him?  We don't really know but I'm pretty sure there were teams who would not have drafted him that high on the offhand chance that his back issues were more serious than thought or chronic.  Any back issues and any back surgeries for an OL or DL are never a good sign.  They can be career ending.

I get Dan is seen as a great source (I never have but none the less) and I like Biggs alot...but I just can't trust hindsight reporting...had it been the issues with his back stopped him practicing and then they came out and said there was a know issue then cool...but why wait 3 weeks of listening to the Bears saying it's only tightness to speak up? Nothing was even hinted at by these guys until it was announced that he had to have surgery...does that really sit well with you? Guys who are usually breaking news wait 3 weeks to say anything about a potential issue? Doesn't sound like any reporter I have ever heard...Greg Gabriel is the most reliable source who stated that there was no back issues or any medical red flags at all with Jenkins...I trust that he is more connected than the beat writers and again he doesn't have a dog in the fighter either...

Either way it doesn't really matter if he did or he didn't at this point...we will never truly know...what we can agree on is it sucks when any player gets hurt and the quicker we can get him back to 100% the better...just don't rush it...

Nagy/Daboll/Fields is going to need that big guy up front for years to come.