beardown3231 Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 7 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Stop it. I have never said either of these things so don't start putting words in my mouth just because it doesn't fit with your very own "written bible" that Nagy is somehow developing Fields wrong before he even takes a snap in the NFL. I'm only calling out fans like yourself who have spent an entire offseason complaining about Nagy being patient and cautious with Fields and how "Fields should start" and him getting "1st team reps" is the best way of development....whilst also spending the last 100 years complaining about this organizations inability to show patience, proper development, and not throwing a QB to the wolves. Ontop of all of this....I kept hearing about the OL in PRESEASON and how bad it was going to be! So why the hell would you wanna throw the org's best QB prospect in history behind that line and get him killed? The amount of hypocrisy behind this line of thinking is ****in crazy. It's not hard to argue? Did you watch the JAX game or are you just going by the box score because the majority of his production came late in the game on the very last drive when the defense were playing laxed. His last 2 INts were solely on him. He had good protection...they were simply poor decisions and poor throws. Fields is not Mitch. Nor is the situation. Nagy helped draft Fields......not Mitch. Nagy thought he could fix Mitch but he didn't choose him. There's a big difference. Also, Foles and Dalton were both 30 year old stop gaps on a declining slope. Do you really expect ANY coach in the league to make them better at this stage? Mitch is the only thing close to Fields by comparison and again....this is not the same. Fields is the first chosen QB by Nagy. In week 8, it'll be better? What about week 12? What happens if the OL is the same + Jenkins and a 2nd or 3rd round rookie in 2022? Do they let him sit still? At some point he has to play. In week 1 I didn't think the OL was awful just as I predicted it wouldn't be. Russell Wilson's OL stinks every year. Rodgers didn't always have the best line Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 14 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Stop it. I have never said either of these things so don't start putting words in my mouth just because it doesn't fit with your very own "written bible" that Nagy is somehow developing Fields wrong before he even takes a snap in the NFL. The bible comment was clearly tongue in cheek because you're acting as if there are absolutes in QB development, and everyone else sky won't read the text . Lol. He not only failed to "fix" Tru he caused him to regress. The offense had one stretch where it looked competent in the last 3 years. He has had multiple vets and still posted anemic offenses. If he cant work with QBs that have enough experience to avoid the issues a rookie has, then I'm not expecting him to develop someone. You might think my criticism is unwarranted but I think your blind faith in him is. Quote I'm only calling out fans like yourself who have spent an entire offseason complaining about Nagy being patient and cautious with Fields and how "Fields should start" and him getting "1st team reps" is the best way of development....whilst also spending the last 100 years complaining about this organizations inability to show patience, proper development, and not throwing a QB to the wolves. And I'm just calling you out for being kind of a jackass repeatedly when someone disagrees with your view on this. This part of your post shows the entitlement that earned my "pompous" remark. You went out of your way to be insulting and demeaning, and don't like it when anyone does it back. I enjoy the majority of your posts but that old saying about not dishing it out if you cant take it, you know. Expectations for Fields should be that of a rookie. You're the one butchering the performances of rookies over their first half of pro football while coming off two teams that won 3 combined games. So your views on patience hold little weight. You're taking small sample sizes to justify your views but have bashed people for taking that same approach. That's hypocritical as hell. No one is asking him to get blasted repeatedly in an aggressive Martz-style offense. Unless you lack faith in Nagy to protect him.... Quote Ontop of all of this....I kept hearing about the OL in PRESEASON and how bad it was going to be! So why the hell would you wanna throw the org's best QB prospect in history behind that line and get him killed? IIRC all the times I complained about the lack of attention in the draft to the OL - or when anyone else said - you were one challenging us for questioning Pace's moves. Why arent you happy with the line? You seemed to support Pace's moves or lack thereof and went after people who questioned them. Nagy's playcalling is conservative enough that he should be able to protect with the quick passing game. Other than the lack of production his offenses have shown that is one of the other few consistent things it features. Quote The amount of hypocrisy behind this line of thinking is ****in crazy. Same for you as I've already mentioned. Quote It's not hard to argue? Did you watch the JAX game or are you just going by the box score because the majority of his production came late in the game on the very last drive when the defense were playing laxed. His last 2 INts were solely on him. He had good protection...they were simply poor decisions and poor throws. I was switching between them and as I've said, rookies should be measured as such. I find it funny you've been more critical of Lawrence than Dalton for his performance even though Chicago has a better cast and Dalton has so much experience. His OL overall was not good, period. Were you as critical of Manning and Luck after their 3 INT debuts? If Fields has a bad game when he does start- week 8 14, or week one of 2022 - are you adamant he would have been so much worse off I'd he had started early? Regardless of who starts at QB gifts isn't a playoff caliber team. Quote Fields is not Mitch. Nor is the situation. Nagy helped draft Fields......not Mitch. Nagy thought he could fix Mitch but he didn't choose him. There's a big difference. Exactly, Fields is already ahead of Mitch when Nagy got him and started him. Glad we agree there. More overall and big game experience. Nagy also failed with one potential franchise QB, further backing why some of us feel this is a wasted season for Fields just like Tru's rookie season was with Loggains and Fox. Quote Also, Foles and Dalton were both 30 year old stop gaps on a declining slope. Do you really expect ANY coach in the league to make them better at this stage? If not why would Nagy and Pace trade a 4th (Foles) and sign Dalton all? A 14 point performance with nothing but checkdowns and quick reads doesn't need 100+ games experience. Why not invest that money into defense and get a cheaper QB if they felt the ceiling was so low? They had the spot guaranteed for them and Dalton was promised the starting gif so how low should their expectations be? Lol. Quote Mitch is the only thing close to Fields by comparison and again....this is not the same. Fields is the first chosen QB by Nagy. Nagy came in knowing Tru was his project. He took the job and didn't have Reid to hold his hand. He also got Foles and Dalton, I highly doubt Pace was forcing Nagy to take them. Nagy isn't a victim of circumstance and he isn't blameless in the inherit offensive play, especially at the QB position. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: The bible comment was clearly tongue in cheek because you're acting as if there are absolutes in QB development, and everyone else sky won't read the text . Lol. That's what you're taking from this? On the contrary, you and others have been doing this all off-season claiming that Fields starting is the "absolute" best way but that's okay to you? I'm simply pointing out the false logic behind it so GTFO with that BS. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: If he cant work with QBs that have enough experience to avoid the issues a rookie has, then I'm not expecting him to develop someone. Then why in the hell would you want Fields to start at all then? See, this is the **** I'm talking about that makes zero sense... People complain the OL is trash, TE's are garbage, Nagy is a terrible coach who is incapable of developing a QB, and now Arob is somehow overrated because he dropped a pass lol (so we apparently don't have a #1 WR either). But these same people still wanna throw Fields out there in this same mess? Meanwhile, this is the same fan base who have been bitchin about this organization's inability to properly develop a QB. This is being hypocritical at it's finest and it only shows just how over reactive and impatient Bears fans really are. You guys don't know what the **** you want. Quote You might think my criticism is unwarranted but I think your blind faith in him is. I never said either of these things. Again, stop putting words in my mouth. That's the 2nd time dude. But I do think it's unwarranted to prematurely jump to conclusions that Nagy is somehow ruining Fields' development before he even gets his first start based on absolutely nothing up to this point. My stance of QBs sitting is atleast based on the words of 2 of the best QBs in the league (Mahomes/Rodgers) and the pick of the litter......Fields' himself crediting Dalton for teaching him and how much he's learned on multiple occasions. They have all talked about the benefits of sitting behind a vet. Along with numerous coaches. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: And I'm just calling you out for being kind of a jackass repeatedly when someone disagrees with your view on this. This part of your post shows the entitlement that earned my "pompous" remark. I could say the same for you. But it's okay for others to do it though because they share your same beliefs? Cool. *This is me letting you believe want you/others wanna believe what you want with no response*...... On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: You went out of your way to be insulting and demeaning, and don't like it when anyone does it back. I enjoy the majority of your posts but that old saying about not dishing it out if you cant take it, you know. Wrong. When people say **** that I think is dumb as hell I'm gonna ask them to explain it in further detail. Take my posts however you feel. And for the record, I don't care what anyone says back to me. Your mistaking me for someone who gives a damn. Meanwhile, I ask direct FOOTBALL related questions as to why people feel the way they do and most em just dodge it. They would rather just repeat the simple one liners that the media told them to say instead of gathering their own thoughts and opinions. Sorry but I dont work that way. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: Expectations for Fields should be that of a rookie. You're the one butchering the performances of rookies over their first half of pro football while coming off two teams that won 3 combined games. So your views on patience hold little weight. You're taking small sample sizes to justify your views but have bashed people for taking that same approach. That's hypocritical as hell. Your missing my point. Again, I've heard all offseason how Nagy should've been giving Fields 1st team reps and started him day 1 because it was the "best way" and I'm using these two QBs as examples as to why this is a flawed logic. Both T Law and Wilson spent 6 months getting 1st team reps and started day 1 and they've both looked less than stellar thru the first 2 weeks--to put it nicely. If those reps truly made THAT much of a difference in performance then that means Wilson's 4INT game yesterday was the best it could've possibly had been. Clearly it didn't make much of a difference at all. By that logic, if Wilson hadn't received those reps then we should be looking at 6-7 INTs in his SECOND game with full reps. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: IIRC all the times I complained about the lack of attention in the draft to the OL - or when anyone else said - you were one challenging us for questioning Pace's moves. Why arent you happy with the line? Again, stop putting words in my mouth. That's the third time. I never said I wasn't happy with the OL (quite the opposite actually) and once again you are either missing my point and/or deliberately trying to ignore it. I my point has been made pretty clear. You (and others) complain about the OL (among other things that could hurt development) but then you want Fields to start behind said OL and really think that's the best way to develop a QB. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: I find it funny you've been more critical of Lawrence than Dalton Because I'm staying on subject here. We're discussing rookies and their development....not 33 year old backup quality vets at the tail end of their careers. Your the one who brought up Dalton...not me. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: Were you as critical of Manning and Luck after their 3 INT debuts? I've already explained why this is irrelevant, but I'll answer your question anyway. Manning played in a completely different era, so that's largely irrelevant in 2021. Luck, hell yeah....I absolutely was critical of him. He was vastly overrated coming out of college to no fault of his own. The media made him out to be the next Peyton and labeled him the face of the NFL before he even took a snap which were unreasonably high standards. His play in play was propped up by weak defenses, weak schedules, and an even weaker division that made him look better than he really was. I wish the old forum was still available and I'd post links to mad arguments I've had on here showing play-by-play mistakes he made while others were making excuses for him. Same with JG when Pat fans were trying tell me and others that he was the second coming of jesus just because of 6 quarters of PRESEASON until I hit em with a little bit of reality based on film. I was critical of Luck in the same way as I am with every other QB. The difference between me and most fans is that I can actually be objective when breaking down QB play while also separating my fandom from what I'm seeing, just like I did with Cutler and Mitch when this entire forum was fighting me over my negative opinions on both of them. If Fields makes a mistake....you will hear about it. Quote If Fields has a bad game when he does start- week 8 14, or week one of 2022 - are you adamant he would have been so much worse off I'd he had started early? Yes. Absolutely. For one, I have alot of complaints with Nagy but I do like that he's being patient with Fields and not just throwing him out there just to save his own job. A rookie debuting on national television when 3 of his OL had not even practiced together all offseason (after both expected #1 and #2 LT's got injured) while playing against one of the best defensive teams in the league featuring the most dominant defensive player in the league is a recipe for disaster. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: Regardless of who starts at QB gifts isn't a playoff caliber team. Agreed. So why rush the best chance that we have at ending this terrible run of QBs? On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: Quote Fields is not Mitch. Nor is the situation. Nagy helped draft Fields......not Mitch. Nagy thought he could fix Mitch but he didn't choose him. There's a big difference. Exactly, Fields is already ahead of Mitch when Nagy got him and started him. Glad we agree there. More overall and big game experience. Nagy also failed with one potential franchise QB, further backing why some of us feel this is a wasted season for Fields just like Tru's rookie season was with Loggains and Fox. Wait. So you agree with me saying Fields is not Mitch and the situation is with Fields different and that Nagy did not draft Mitch like he did Fields but then turn around and blame Nagy for failing to develop Mitch as a reason why do don't trust Nagy in developing Fields? That doesn't make any sense unless you believe Mitch would've done better under a different coach and that Mitch is better than what he showed here in Chicago? He's still young...so if this true, then it'll show in due time tho. A 1 year backup deal is not a good start though. You're also a big fan of Daboll right, so that should be an extra bonus in your book? So he should be able to make Mitch a viable starting QB then, right? Time will tell. We'll see how his future pans out and then we'll see whether Mitch didn't pan out because of the coaches or Mitch just wasn't good enough from jump. 1) Mitch wasn't nearly as good of a prospect as Fields was. 2) Nagy acquired Mitch AFTER Mitch was thrown to the wolves in 2017 by Fox and Logains. 3) Fields is the first real prospect QBthat Nagy has had a chance to develop that he personally chose. On 9/18/2021 at 2:47 PM, Sugashane said: Quote Also, Foles and Dalton were both 30 year old stop gaps on a declining slope. Do you really expect ANY coach in the league to make them better at this stage? If not why would Nagy and Pace trade a 4th (Foles) and sign Dalton all? I'll answer your question, despite you dodging mine, because it's simple.....Mitch/Foles is a MUCH better lineup than Mitch/Bray(?) in 2020 and Dalton/Foles is a MUCH better lineup than Foles/Which-ever-fan-is-standing-in row 15 on day 1 in 2021. I honestly can't believe this is a serious question. You are really knocking ANY coach (Nagy in particular) for not being able to "develop" two declining 30+ year old backup level QBs. Stop dodging my question..... Do you really expect ANY coach in the league to make Foles or Dalton better at this stage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 On 9/18/2021 at 9:40 AM, abstract_thought said: Which QB did the Bears “throw to the wolves”? Tru, Cutler, Orton, Rex....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) On 9/21/2021 at 12:48 AM, JAF-N72EX said: That's what you're taking from this? On the contrary, you and others have been doing this all off-season claiming that Fields starting is the "absolute" best way but that's okay to you? I said Fields getting reps is important. I've said this season is basically a lost season due to Nagy being a mediocre HC and the team not being talented enough to do more than it has in the last two postseason appearances if they can make it. I've been well on the train that Fields gives us a better chance to do something in postseason play than Dalton - who has been beyond abysmal the few times he made the playoffs to begin with. IF we had even an average starter and a coach that has been able to elevate/develop QBs then I'd be fine with sitting him if that was the plan. Reid says he needs to sit? Fine. McDaniels or someone who has RAN a successful offense themselves rather than having someone who set, established, and developed the players for them saying so? Ok. They have a track record of success. Nagy does not. Far from it over his time in Chicago. Nagy SHOULD be on the hot seat, so getting reps with players who actually could be players on here after Nagy LIKELY should be fired? Yes. I want that experience. There is a reason Brady wants reps in the offseason with people, he wants the timing down and to get the understanding of how they run their routes and such. I don't believe Nagy offers more than that. IMO seeing Fields grow over the season is the only thing that should save Nagy's job. Long-term trumps this season to me, bell with the record. But we have a high end back up starting, and I don't believe Fields gives us less of a chance to win than Dalton if all things are equal. Yes, I believe reps are important and I believe Nagy is a waste of space. We see the constant lack of progress of our skill players so I don't have a ton of faith in Nagy structuring practice well or having a long-term plan for growth. I believe Lazor is a superior offensive mind and playcaller to Nagy (Flip too) but Nagy demands to be the playcaller, so he is hurting the team. If he is doing so for that why should I believe he is putting the team's growth and development first over his own ego? You claim Tru was thrown to the wolves - I think as far as coaching that he was a similar deal as Fields now. Talent wise it definitely was disgusting, but Pace was gutting the roster and put his only competition as Glennon. So I can see your point there but he had almost no competition. Cutler was given a huge deal and was going into his 4th season. What would you have expected them to do? Bench him in favor of Hanie? lol Forte, Olsen and having a young Hester and Knox developing isn't ideal but is far from the worst position to put a QB in (trading Olsen and then the OL talent degrading was putrid though) . Orton had to fill in because Rex went down, and attempted the 3rd least amount of passes in the league. They did everything they could to take pressure off Orton. Grossman got to sit until week 14. They even had him sitting behind the likes of Stewart and Chandler so he wasn't "thrown to the wolves" in any way either imo. You can't make a perfect roster to support them, we are never going to have an offensive roster like KC when Mahomes took over. It's ideal but unreasonable, so what are your mandatory prerequisites to put a QB in to start? Ambiguous statements like "when he's ready" and such are empty and mean nothing though we read it repeatedly from coach talk and media heads. Coaches like Reid have a track record and tenure so I can believe them, Nagy has nothing. I mean, where do you draw the line and tell the QB that it is his time, make it happen? Not even specifically to Fields if you have a base guideline. Quote Then why in the hell would you want Fields to start at all then? See, this is the **** I'm talking about that makes zero sense... Listed reasons above. We aren't in a David Carr situation and while Nagy isn't a good playcaller his schemes have been conservative enough that I don't believe Fields takes major abuse unless he refuses to slide ala young Rodgers. If he was doing the Martz's zero protection and 7 step drops then by all means, just sit him. I think he learns and develops more in game situations than with Nagy running practices and focusing on Dalton and running scout team, for example. Other positions like OL and DL you get to work your craft more in practice than QBs IMO. Not saying its worthless, but you're not building the same rapport with WRs and timing whereas they are frequently just trying to win one on one battles. Quote People complain the OL is trash, TE's are garbage, Nagy is a terrible coach who is incapable of developing a QB, and now Arob is somehow overrated because he dropped a pass lol (so we apparently don't have a #1 WR either). But these same people still wanna throw Fields out there in this same mess? Meanwhile, this is the same fan base who have been bitchin about this organization's inability to properly develop a QB. ARob isn't overrated to me because he dropped a pass. It happens and he deserves flack for dropping it as any starting WR should have caught that, it sucks but he is still a guy who deserves to be in the conversation as a top 10 WR but none as a top 5 WR. If he drops 3-5 TDs then we seriously need to talk but even Rice dropped passes. Graham has one thing he can do at an acceptable level, and it's only in the redzone. That's why his snaps are dropping I'd wager. Kmet isn't great but is fine. Agree with Nagy and there is no real proof otherwise - unless you've seen something you could share. Please tell us your resolution then. Should Nagy be extended? Is he a good HC who can and will develop Fields? Should Pace be extended since he has an underwhelming group around the best QB prospect we've ever had? Pace had years to rebuild the roster and this OL and weapons he has for Fields. If you consider this all acceptable then what is the benefit to having Dalton playing besides mental reps? If he needs protected then doesn't that mean Nagy and/or Pace have failed so far? Quote This is being hypocritical at it's finest and it only shows just how over reactive and impatient Bears fans really are. You guys don't know what the **** you want. What do you want? Specifically from Nagy and Fields. Of course we all want him to develop and be a HOF yadda yadda. But aside from sitting and learning what is it you want from the offense and Nagy this season? If Dalton is a declining backup level QB then what should Nagy do to show he needs to be the one with Fields for the next several years? Quote But I do think it's unwarranted to prematurely jump to conclusions that Nagy is somehow ruining Fields' development before he even gets his first start based on absolutely nothing up to this point. My stance of QBs sitting is atleast based on the words of 2 of the best QBs in the league (Mahomes/Rodgers) and the pick of the litter......Fields' himself crediting Dalton for teaching him and how much he's learned on multiple occasions. They have all talked about the benefits of sitting behind a vet. Along with numerous coaches. *I may have you mixed with someone else but I see this is going to be a long post so I'm not digging to check. If I'm paraphrasing someone else then I apologize. But thank you for detailing on why you have that point. If you think Tru and Fields can't be compared fairly because of so many different factors then I don't think it would be fair to compare Fields or Tru to Mahomes and Rodgers in that same train of thought. Both we're backing up either a HOF or being coached by one when they got there. That's a major difference from what we have. Reid has a long history of developing QBs to at least play at a high level in spurts or highly productive offenses. Rodgers was getting to play behind Favre and had guys like Clements (who I think is criminally underrated league-wide). Hell I trust McCarthy more than Nagy with QBs. I personally don't think Rodgers would have sat had it not been Favre ahead of him, had they had a Dalton-level QB I think Rodgers takes the spot. I feel they may just be being respectful of the mentors, and I don't discredit mentoring with vets. But since Rodgers, who has been a QB drafted in the top round or two that sat a whole year or two and developed into a starting caliber QB? Kaep is the only one I can think of, though I may be missing a blatant one. And clearly he wasn't much more than an average at best player propped up by a fantastic roster. Mahomes is the closest but developing from "raw rookie" (most draft pundits) to MVP over the course of one season because of sitting behind Smith for 15-16 weeks? His talent and ability popped in that start his rookie year. I just don't believe i wouldn't have been a similar result if he started earlier. He is just massively talented and has a perfect blend of crazy talent around him with offensive guru like Reid. Maybe sitting behind Smith was exactly what he needed, but I think if he started the whole season KC's offense has more yards and TDs than with Smith. Could absolutely be wrong though. Quote *** Accidentally deleted one of the posts about me allowing others to be demeaning when they share the same beliefs Wrong. Rather than temp banning people I've PMed numerous people and deleted posts that were simply stupid and had no positive outcomes to come from it and numerous bordering on vulgar. Some I've personally agreed with the logic behind it, though it was worded in a complete a**hole manner. Sometimes its easier to just delete comments and send a quick PM rather than bother with posting warnings just for them to be ignored. Yes, some were aimed at you or other members and getting rid of it when people are in their feelings works best IMO. Quote Meanwhile, I ask direct FOOTBALL related questions as to why people feel the way they do and most em just dodge it. They would rather just repeat the simple one liners that the media told them to say instead of gathering their own thoughts and opinions. Sorry but I dont work that way. Asking football related questions is always fine. I don't have twitter or even regular TV so I don't follow most of the media, though I know this comment was general for people here than just me. I think a lot of what may be said here is common and repeatable though, not just because XYZ reported it. For example, until Nagy produces a real offense I'm no longer giving him the benefit of the doubt, because the offense got worse over 3 straight years and that first year was lifted by a borderline freakish defense and massive aberration for a small stretch. Quote Your missing my point. Again, I've heard all offseason how Nagy should've been giving Fields 1st team reps and started him day 1 because it was the "best way" and I'm using these two QBs as examples as to why this is a flawed logic. Again that is flawed logic IMO. Mahomes and Rodgers would absolutely be ahead of them statistically if dropped into that spot today, but I don't believe the roster is good enough to allow them to even be in the MVP consideration. I don't know that anyone would have expected them to go in and play lights out, but there is no clear way to evidence that they would be better prepared or anything of the sort had a vet been there ahead of them. Putting someone in a damning situation and using it to support a long-term view doesn't work. Tru didn't work out, but it wasn't because his rookie support was trash (for his tenure as a whole, his rookie year was the cast mostly). Grossman didn't work out and it wasn't because he sat. To me it is the best way to show Nagy can run and offense that fits Fields and see progression. I'm not expecting anyone to sit and then come out to have Rodgers' stats or anything. I want to see Nagy run a real offense around Fields, utilize his skillset and seeing growth in a QB over 17 weeks is far easier than seeing someone get a 3-4 game stretch or handing the ball off in garbage time. The longer the data field the easier to find and rule out outliers. This goes beyond Fields. Nagy is here, and I want to have HIM reviewed too. I don't want him hiding behind a vet that someone else has worked with and has 150+ starts to his name. If Nagy is going to be the one who develops Fields for the next 4 years, if we are going to take that stance with the best QB prospect we have had in Bears history, I think we need to set the bar high. That is a major issue with me seeing Dalton out there. Quote Both T Law and Wilson spent 6 months getting 1st team reps and started day 1 and they've both looked less than stellar thru the first 2 weeks--to put it nicely. If those reps truly made THAT much of a difference in performance then that means Wilson's 4INT game yesterday was the best it could've possibly had been. Clearly it didn't make much of a difference at all. By that logic, if Wilson hadn't received those reps then we should be looking at 6-7 INTs in his SECOND game with full reps. It isn't surprising for rookies to look bad when the talent level around them is lacking. If Lawrence had gone to NE and had McDaniels and a defense that was allowing like 11 PPG do you think they would have been pushing the offense so hard? He is being put in the same spot Mahomes was in college and Cutler was when Trestman and Emery were here - put up 30+ or lose. I'm not saying I agree they should be trying to air it out and force the issue but in NE would that happen? And with Wilson it is the same. You're looking at a tiny substrata of data when we need to take the long-term view. Otherwise we could all jump at Rodgers week one performance and say lack of reps caused it. "IF Rodgers can't get the offense going without reps how can we get rookies on track without them?" That kind of thinking is just too superficial. Its like assuming sitting would mean Rodgers and Mahomes like results. There's way too much involved for that. Quote Again, stop putting words in my mouth. That's the third time. I never said I wasn't happy with the OL (quite the opposite actually) and once again you are either missing my point and/or deliberately trying to ignore it. I my point has been made pretty clear. You (and others) complain about the OL (among other things that could hurt development) but then you want Fields to start behind said OL and really think that's the best way to develop a QB. When you said the OL was performing well considering they only had a small bit of time together (or something of the sort) you indicated that the expectations were lower. That isn't putting words in your mouth, that is inferring something directly from what you said relevant to the situation. You were happy with their play given the circumstances - ignoring how you indicate that lack of reps makes an impact there fits along with how most of us say reps are meaningful with young QBs - so the expectation was that it would not have been good. I've said repeatedly the offense is conservative enough he shouldn't take a beating. The OL is run blocking far better than I expected as well so that takes a ton of strain off Fields, whereas the Jags and Jets are bottom 10 in rushing. Quote I've already explained why this is irrelevant, but I'll answer your question anyway. Manning played in a completely different era, so that's largely irrelevant in 2021. Luck, hell yeah....I absolutely was critical of him. He was vastly overrated coming out of college to no fault of his own. The media made him out to be the next Peyton and labeled him the face of the NFL before he even took a snap which were unreasonably high standards. His play in play was propped up by weak defenses, weak schedules, and an even weaker division that made him look better than he really was. If you're not counting Manning because it was a different era then how are you using "100 years" of ineptitude for the Bears at the position? Not being snarky, seriously. Plus unless you know of someone from after Rodgers on who developed after sitting for a two years then you have little to back your claim that they need to sit in the same manner from whatbi see. With Luck - I actually think that is reasonable. As with most QBs he was projected off traits and he could check off the boxes on almost anything you wanted. But I think Fields does much of the same but has real big game exposure to his backing. Quote I wish the old forum was still available and I'd post links to mad arguments I've had on here showing play-by-play mistakes he made while others were making excuses for him. Same with JG when Pat fans were trying tell me and others that he was the second coming of jesus just because of 6 quarters of PRESEASON until I hit em with a little bit of reality based on film. I was critical of Luck in the same way as I am with every other QB. The difference between me and most fans is that I can actually be objective when breaking down QB play while also separating my fandom from what I'm seeing, just like I did with Cutler and Mitch when this entire forum was fighting me over my negative opinions on both of them. If Fields makes a mistake....you will hear about it. That's fine and should be warranted. I liked JG but some of the trades people were throwing out were crazy. I've been bashing Nagy for the same failings. Quote Yes. Absolutely. For one, I have alot of complaints with Nagy but I do like that he's being patient with Fields and not just throwing him out there just to save his own job. Again, I'm looking at the long-term. Fields is here for the next 4 years minimum, and I don't think the rookie year will detract from him since he isn't in the lose-lose situations I've mentioned. We need to see if Nagy is the one who needs to be here. If Pace is secure and knows he is going to scrap Nagy then I couldn't care less if Dalton plays every snap. We aren't a legit contender under and circumstance so I'm fine with going 3-14 if it means long-term growth (again, tongue in cheek). We agree Fields is the best prospect Chicago has ever had, and I don't want to waste him under 4 more years of Nagy if Nagy can't show he is able to develop him. I'd rather swing for the fences with a new hire than accept a bunt here. Can Nagy show he is going to do what he has failed to do the last 4 years - elevate and develop a QB? That is literally all 2021 is about to me. If Nagy can't run a competent offense with Fields as Fields is now then he needs replaced. I'm not expecting 4000 yards and a 28/12 TD INT ratio, but Nagy needs to show something to warrant keeping. Quote A rookie debuting on national television when 3 of his OL had not even practiced together all offseason (after both expected #1 and #2 LT's got injured) while playing against one of the best defensive teams in the league featuring the most dominant defensive player in the league is a recipe for disaster. I thought you were happy with the OL? And if reps don't matter for QBs why do they for OL? (Kidding, I get the point fully). While I was shocked Nagy and Dalton had zero real aggressive throws downfield, I think we all expected a conservative, quick throw game for many of those same reasons. If you don't think Fields would be willing to take the small plays then I get it, but I have more faith in Fields than that. If his coach is telling him to get it out fast, I think he would be more than willing to. He likely would be a bit slower and more aggressive so the chance of getting a big hit is there regardless. Quote Agreed. So why rush the best chance that we have at ending this terrible run of QBs? I don't feel the Rams game would have done so, I DO fear that Nagy is just another person who rides off Fields and prevents us from ending that streak with QBs. I've made several comments on how there are players I'd take early to sit for a season if they needed - Jaylon Smith was one, Jenkins I'd have taken if I knew he'd be on IR all season nd the medical staff said he'd fully heal after. The same can be with Fields. He can sit, but if so what are we going to find out about Nagy. I'd rather him have a crappy first season and ditch the dead weight over retaining McCarthy to hold back Rodgers (extreme take but to make a point). If Nagy does well with Fields and we see him get better as the season goes on then I'll stop my badgering of Nagy substantially. We aren't putting a historic talented offense around Fields like they did to carry McCarthy. Quote Wait. So you agree with me saying Fields is not Mitch and the situation is with Fields different and that Nagy did not draft Mitch like he did Fields but then turn around and blame Nagy for failing to develop Mitch as a reason why do don't trust Nagy in developing Fields? That doesn't make any sense unless you believe Mitch would've done better under a different coach and that Mitch is better than what he showed here in Chicago? I agree Fields and Tru are almost nothing alike. Nagy came here believing he could turn Tru into a franchise QB. If he didn't then he wouldn't have taken the job, because that was absolutely one of the primary reasons he was hired. KC reviewed Tru just like they did Mahomes, and if he didn't like him he wouldn't have tied himself to him. Nagy was a rising name and would absolutely have been given a shot that year or at latest the next. I don't believer he panicked and thought "this is my one shot" like some would imply. I do believe Mitch could have been better elsewhere and have said that multiple times. Now could have have been on Mahomes or Allen's levels? No and one of the few bets I would put money against. But putting stats, data on accuracy to levels of the field, ability to read defenses, etc I fully believe had he gone to NO, KC, or a handful of others that he would absolutely be better than he is now and be a starter. Do you feel otherwise and that Nagy was the one really handcuffed by Tru? I think it was a bad fit and Nagy wasn't (and isn't) good enough to really adapt a system and develop a QB. If I'm wrong and he gets Fields to be what I hope, then I'll gladly eat my crow with a Nagy jersey on each Sunday (it would be a knockoff but still). Quote He's still young...so if this true, then it'll show in due time tho. A 1 year backup deal is not a good start though. You're also a big fan of Daboll right, so that should be an extra bonus in your book? So he should be able to make Mitch a viable starting QB then, right? Time will tell. We'll see how his future pans out and then we'll see whether Mitch didn't pan out because of the coaches or Mitch just wasn't good enough from jump. I am a fan of Daboll. I will say this, I think after one year with Daboll that Tru will be better than he was when he left Chicago. I don't think he will ever be a true franchise guy but I think he could definitely have a Fitzpatrick kind of career where he starts for multiple teams , though not 10 or however many Fitz has. Quote 1) Mitch wasn't nearly as good of a prospect as Fields was. 2) Nagy acquired Mitch AFTER Mitch was thrown to the wolves in 2017 by Fox and Logains. 3) Fields is the first real prospect QBthat Nagy has had a chance to develop that he personally chose. Ok, agree on one, blame Pace highly for two and don't believe it had much to do with Tru's failed tenure in Chicago, and agree on three for the most part as I noted above. That being said, picking a talent that has as many staunch supporters wasn't exactly a shocking move. I have been a big Fields fan as many of us have been, since he was a high school prospect. If Nagy gets the boot, I'm not going easy on the new HC just as I wasn't on Nagy. Because as with Tru the talent (and warts) are there. This time around there's more talent and far less warts. Quote I'll answer your question, despite you dodging mine, because it's simple.....Mitch/Foles is a MUCH better lineup than Mitch/Bray(?) in 2020 and Dalton/Foles is a MUCH better lineup than Foles/Which-ever-fan-is-standing-in row 15 on day 1 in 2021. I honestly can't believe this is a serious question. You are really knocking ANY coach (Nagy in particular) for not being able to "develop" two declining 30+ year old backup level QBs. Stop dodging my question..... Do you really expect ANY coach in the league to make Foles or Dalton better at this stage? Foles is better than Bray, absolutely. But thats low-lying fruit. There were 10+ QBs better than Bray in FA that didn't require big deals. A mediocre back up could have been had for cheaper, to me that was a mis-evaluation on Nagy and Pace. I didn't dodge it, you and everyone on here has seen what I've said about the Foles and Dalton trade and signings - they were terrible. I've hated both, and never been shy about it. You're taking low ceiling vets that offer nothing significant on Sunday. There is no "developing" them at that stage, hence the word "declining." Here is my point - Pace and Nagy both thought, and I'm absolutely a believer that Nagy is the primary reason - that Foles and Dalton could outperform Tru. Both were not brought in to be mentors and nothing else, both were brought in to compete at MINIMUM, since Dalton had the spot handed to him immediately. Chicago's lack of execution on offense was a primary reason and blame was shifted mostly onto Tru IMO, and Nagy scapegoated him. This is what brought two overpaid declining back ups to start in Chicago, rather than putting that money into positions to support the QB. Since the QBs have already been "developed" Nagy gets to solely focus on the offense and prove he isn't the issue, or at least that is why I feel they signed two guys that should be backing up QBs elsewhere for less. To me the moves reeked of desperation and while I hope Dalton is a great mentor I don't expect him to make much of a difference more than Foles or Sanchez did with Tru. That being said, I DO believe they can perform better under numerous HCs/OCs. That being said, if you're depending on either of them to do more than be a back up you're already in a sh*t situation. Edited September 28, 2021 by Sugashane Took out unnecessary snarky remarks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 I'm just gonna cut to the chase here. Ready or not Dalton's injury seems to mean that not only will Fields start this week but in all likelihood for the next one or two games after this was well. Unless somehow either someone is lying about Dalton's injury or doesn't know what they're talking about. (Always a possibility). I don't see this as "throwing Fields to the wolves" at all. Not when his OC says he's ready to start. If Matt Nagy is gonna be the only one to offer opinions and make decisions why not just dismiss the entire offensive staff and let Nagy run it all by himself? (Seems to me he'd like to). Last Sunday Fields came into a game running an offensive game plan geared to Andy Dalton. So any expectations should at least be tempered by that. It wasn't a great half of football from a scoring standpoint but then ARob did let a sure TD pass slip through his hands. (That's rare). Add that into the equation and the game stats and all of Fields numbers look better. This week he should finally get what some of us have been calling for all along. Practice reps with the starters. If nothing more I think that's essential for getting timing down with his receivers. Other improvements can come from a game plan designed for him. (If Nagy does it). My thinking is in another week or two we'll have a much better idea of what Fields is capable of now and quite possibly down the road once an entire offense has been built around him. They key is doing just that something Nagy did not do very well with Mitch. (So what happens now). This weekend is what Bears fans have been waiting for. No doubt we should temper our expectations a bit but in the end we'll have better data to go by. If Lazor was right then we'll see that soon enough or he was wrong and Fields get shelved awhile longer. (Let's find out). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 Damn. Alot to uncover here. I'm far too busy to address this like I want to but tomorrow is looking like a light day at work and I'm about to get to all of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted September 28, 2021 Author Share Posted September 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: Damn. Alot to uncover here. I'm far too busy to address this like I want to but tomorrow is looking like a light day at work and I'm about to get to all of this. Lol. No more dissertations for me man. I started reading because I couldn't remember what was going on and quit after like 5 sentences. We were going at each other too much. I'm good. Any football insights I'm all for reading though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon Posted September 28, 2021 Share Posted September 28, 2021 If anything, this week's *poop*show... has me more convinced than ever that Fields should be the starter. Why? Because it's 100% obvious this team isn't competitive after that game. There was some hype driven hope going around before this game, but I don't think anyone can remotely say with a straight face that this is a competitive team as it currently stands. Most of that is on Nagy..... some of it is pretty serious bad luck on OT injuries forcing us to play sub par talent.... but there's also a pretty hefty dose of of the offense just sucking personnel wise in general. Our #1 WR, in a contract year, is playing like a #3... our #3s may as well have not even been on the Field. The only one of our TE that has ever thrown a block this entire season is our 3rd-4th stringer. Our Center is barely an NFL backup We're more likely to false start on 3rd and 1 than convert. Literally our entire offense right now, is Montgomery, Mooney, and Fields.... Those three are the only people I see consistently trying their ***es off.... Occasionally Daniels and Whitehair show up too, and Robinson has been an "ok" "#3" despite the fact he's supposed to be our #1. You can't win many fights 3-6 (in a best case scenario) vs 11 constantly.... and that's before accounting for the coaching/scheme. So TL : DR is that Fields should start, because these are effectively a pre-season games for 2022, and as far as I'm concerned, Nagy is already Fired, it's the rest of the offense not named Montgomery, Mooney, and Fields that is now playing for their jobs here in the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 22 hours ago, Sugashane said: We were going at each other too much. I'm good. Any football insights I'm all for reading though. Fair enough. I don't wanna keep going at each other either. I had alot to say but I'll only stick with why I think Mitch, Grossman, and Cutler were thrown to the wolves IMO and that's all only because I think your memory might be slipping already at such a young age lol, and It's bothering me. I'll address it in a minute. That and I hope you didn't take anything I said personal. Me saying GTFO is not a tough guy statement...that's just how I talk. It's an expression. I figured you knew me well enough by now to know that it wasn't personal. Remember, this is an online discussion and expressions are sometimes hard to decipher thru text. Just like your statement earlier in the thread that I took the wrong way. I say "GTFO" when I'm just sitting around BSing with my wife, kids, friends, family and employees--even in a joking manner. This is why I don't take it personal whenever someone says "GTFO" to me online because I read it the same way unless it's an obvious and blatent personal attack. If you tell me right now "your wrong JAF....GTFO with that BS" I'm not gonna take it personal. I wouldn't even blink an eye at the words "GTFO". I'll just move on and respond to whatever we were talking about. But I digress. It's all good. @Epyon Even as an advocate for Fields sitting and thinking he isn't ready (which I could use these last 6 qrts as examples), I just don't think much can be drawn from this last game regardless of where you stand on the topic IMO. I know it speaks alot to coaching (Nagy in particular) and you're not wrong at all, but at the same time it's hard to judge Fields and the rest of the skill players after such a horrendous game. The game starts up front and poor coaching, poor play-calling, and poor OL play all happening at the same time is the absolute worst case scenario for any QB and skill player to be in. Much less to the extent that it was Sunday--which was on an extreme level of bad. I honestly think this was just a case of a tornado and hurricane colliding in the wrong place at the same time. JMO. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) On 9/21/2021 at 3:16 PM, Sugashane said: You claim Tru was thrown to the wolves - I think as far as coaching that he was a similar deal as Fields now. Talent wise it definitely was disgusting, but Pace was gutting the roster and put his only competition as Glennon. So I can see your point there but he had almost no competition. Cutler was given a huge deal and was going into his 4th season. What would you have expected them to do? Bench him in favor of Hanie? lol Forte, Olsen and having a young Hester and Knox developing isn't ideal but is far from the worst position to put a QB in (trading Olsen and then the OL talent degrading was putrid though) . Orton had to fill in because Rex went down, and attempted the 3rd least amount of passes in the league. They did everything they could to take pressure off Orton. Grossman got to sit until week 14. They even had him sitting behind the likes of Stewart and Chandler so he wasn't "thrown to the wolves" in any way either imo. You can't make a perfect roster to support them, we are never going to have an offensive roster like KC when Mahomes took over. It's ideal but unreasonable, so what are your mandatory prerequisites to put a QB in to start? I didn't like Mitch out of college but I've always felt like he would've had a much better chance if he had sat the entire year. Mitch was a raw talent coming out of college with only 12 starts under his belt and Fox still threw him out there with a lackluster roster under the worst OC since Ron Turner in order to save his job when he was on the hot seat. If that's literly not the definition of "throwing a QB to the wolves" then I'd love to hear what is. These are the type of situations that can damage a QBs confidence, and in turn, hurt his development both short and long term and we seen this happen with Mitch as time went on. Which brings me back to my point about the fans and how they seem to feel about the current roster and Fields' Development. According to many of you; Pace is garbage and can't draft, the roster is lackluster, the HC/OC is terrible and should be on the hot seat. Does this situation sound familiar to you? That's rhetorical question. The Same with Grossman. He was another perfect example of a QB who should've sat the entire year but was thrown to the wolves far too early in hopes of saving ANOTHER HC on the hot seat (Jauron). In fact, given the circumstances, there was actually even MORE of a reason to sit Grossman the entire season than even Mitch. Both were in terrible situations. Mitch lacked experience but had a good work ethic. Rex had more college experience but came from a school that didn't run any resemblance of a pro system and had a poor work ethic. Rex came from a college (Gators) who is notoriously known for running a QB friendly system that do not generally translate well into the pros. Rex doubled down on this by declaring for the draft a year too early even after his play had already declined the minute Steve Spurrier left. Grossman knew this too which is why he tried to declare after his sophmore year but was declined. He just wanted that big pay check (long before the rookie scale). To put it more blunt....Grossman wasn't ready for the NFL and Grossman knew it, GM's knew it, scouts knew it, and Angelo should've had known this but he didn't do ANY homework on Rex prior to the draft. He didn't send any scouts to watch his workouts, he didn't interview him, he didn't meet with him in person, or even send any staff/scout to talk with him. He literally thought he had seen enough of Rex on film to be convinced he was their guy and didn't wanna tip his hand before the draft thinking he was out-smarting the system. Then they found out AFTER the draft that Rex was a big partier with a poor work ethic and was having trouble digesting the playbook ontop of every other red flag. Knowing all of this, sitting him was definatly the right decision. In fact, this was expected for any team led by Jauron since he believed in QB's sitting for a year behind a vet anyways. Every team he coached He sat Cade McKown behind Shane Mathews in the late 90s, sat Orlovsky behind Jeff Garcia in Detroit, and sat trent Edwards behind JP Losman in Buffalo --although understandable. So again, sitting him was the best choice but starting him at all was a terrible choice given the curcumstances and situation. Shoop was an awful OC. The OL was horrendous (save for Olin )--Villareal's age was showing, Gandy turned out to be a solid player later on but he was still learning to play tackle (which he had never done in college), and the other O-lineman may as well had not even been there at all. A-train put on weight in the offseason and couldn't stay healthy, so we had no meaningful run game. The WR's sans (oft-nagging injured) Booker were made up of former busts in Dez White (who couldn't catch a cold) and a lazy David Terrell. The TEs had absolutely no athleticism to speak off-- Dez was a good blocker and a damn good locker room guy but his hands were always questionable and he certainly wasn't fit to carry an offense or operate as a safety blanket. Meanwhile....Jauron literally watched both Chandler and Kordell run for their lives and get absolutely destroyed in the back field all season and really thought it was a good idea to throw Rex out there late in December. If an athletic QB like Kordell couldn't escape that amount of pressure then what did Jauron think was gonna happen to a statue like Grossman? But alas....look at what happened.....nobody could get open and Rex injured his throwing hand after getting drilled 2 and half games later and goes down for the season (sound familiar to what happened to Fields on Sunday). Jauron tried to save his job and Rex paid for it. Instead of Rex preparing for 2004 he had spent time rehabbing an injury that shouldn't have happened in the first place. Much like Mitch's situation.....that's the definition of throwing a QB to the wolves. Cutler wasn't the same as above and not necessarily thrown to the wolves in a sense.....I'll concede to that. I only brought up Cutler because of the situations. In Denver, Cutler had coaching stability (same HC and OC for 3 seasons since his rookie year), arguably the best OL in the league, a solid group of TE's with depth (who could both block and stretch the field), and one of the deepest group of WRs in league featuring Marshall/Royal/Stokely. With all of this he had the best season of his career and it was still an average at best season and no where near as good as it should've been under those circumstances, and it damn sure not as good as his raw stats suggested. Now, if you compare his situation in Denver to what he was walking into here in Chicago then the writing was on the wall from the jump. Chicago's OC, OL, WR's, and TEs were far worse than what he had in Denver while also having to learn entirely new offensive system. The only aspects he gained that improved between each team were a better run game and a better defense (until Urlacher got injured in week 1 anyhow). If he couldn't be anything more than average at best in Denver than he damn sure wasn't going to work out here in Chicago. And it DAMN sure wasn't going to work with Turner as OC but firing him means your now throwing Cutler his 3rd OC in 5 years and his 2nd OC in just as many years in Chicago and I don't think I need to tell you how damaging that can be. He went thru what...4-5 different OCs here....how does that help development? Bears fans were enamored by the 4,000 yards but most of them didnt take the time to go back and see just how he got those yards in the first place. All they did was eat into whatever Biggs and every other beat reporter was feeding them. Well I did check...well before teh trade. As soon as it was suggested that Cutler may be getting traded I went back and watch every one of his throws and needless to say I was not impressed after watching him make erratic throws off his back foot into double coverages while ignoring underneath routes, and the refs, Royal and Marshall bailing him out time and time again on ill-advised throws. This is what I was screaming about well before and after the trade and why I hated it in the first place. Edited September 29, 2021 by JAF-N72EX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted September 29, 2021 Author Share Posted September 29, 2021 10 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Fair enough. I don't wanna keep going at each other either. I had alot to say but I'll only stick with why I think Mitch, Grossman, and Cutler were thrown to the wolves IMO and that's all only because I think your memory might be slipping already at such a young age lol, and It's bothering me. I'll address it in a minute. That and I hope you didn't take anything I said personal. Me saying GTFO is not a tough guy statement...that's just how I talk. It's an expression. I figured you knew me well enough by now to know that it wasn't personal. Remember, this is an online discussion and expressions are sometimes hard to decipher thru text. Just like your statement earlier in the thread that I took the wrong way. I say "GTFO" when I'm just sitting around BSing with my wife, kids, friends, family and employees--even in a joking manner. This is why I don't take it personal whenever someone says "GTFO" to me online because I read it the same way unless it's an obvious and blatent personal attack. If you tell me right now "your wrong JAF....GTFO with that BS" I'm not gonna take it personal. I wouldn't even blink an eye at the words "GTFO". I'll just move on and respond to whatever we were talking about. But I digress. It's all good. @Epyon Even as an advocate for Fields sitting and thinking he isn't ready (which I could use these last 6 qrts as examples), I just don't think much can be drawn from this last game regardless of where you stand on the topic IMO. I know it speaks alot to coaching (Nagy in particular) and you're not wrong at all, but at the same time it's hard to judge Fields and the rest of the skill players after such a horrendous game. The game starts up front and poor coaching, poor play-calling, and poor OL play all happening at the same time is the absolute worst case scenario for any QB and skill player to be in. Much less to the extent that it was Sunday--which was on an extreme level of bad. I honestly think this was just a case of a tornado and hurricane colliding in the wrong place at the same time. JMO. I can't even blame drugs either brother. Got married at 21, that's caused me enough trauma to warrant my... lapses? Lol As far add the GTFO, I honestly don't remember you putting that down at any other time so I assumed the status quo for how it is usually used online. That's my bad then. Honestly I'm hoping Fields gets his starts and they are similarly poorly called, then Dalton comes in and produces the same meager results. Over the next few games the schedule is brutal so Nagy might get booted. Lazor isn't a HC candidate but I'd be fine with him or even Pettine taking the interim job while Lazor gets the full control of the offense. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted September 29, 2021 Share Posted September 29, 2021 (edited) IF, and I realize that as of today that's a big if, we can protect Fields and create game plans to help him be effective now I believe there's no harm in starting him. With the exception of Trey Lance every other rookie is starting now. Why soul? What's your rationale? Having watched enough video of him by now one issue the sticks out at me is that his internal clock is still set to OSU time. He takes too much time reading his options and holds the ball too long. In college a QB often has that kind of time but not in the NFL. IMHO the only way to reset his internal clock is for him to keep playing at NFL speed. Reps with the scout team or even reps with the starters won't fix that. He has to adapt to it under game conditions where the pass rushers don't pull up prior to contact. He's already shown he has the arm strength to make every NFL throw that any QB needs to make and he's also demonstrated some pin point accuracy when he has time to set up properly and throw. He had no chance to do that on Sunday. None at all. After having seen at least parts of 3 games with an emphasis on watching the offense I've flipped my opinion around. Justin Fields will gain nothing from watching Andy Dalton or Nick Foles run Matt Nagy's failed offense from the sidelines. He has to play. If his presser today isn't to announce his resignation then at the very least Matt Nagy needs to announce that Bill Lazor will handle both play calling AND become the principal architect of each weeks game plan along with input from the offensive staff. The only way this team can survive this season and Fields or any other QB can survive it is to begin doing what can be done offensively not what Matt Nagy would like to do or even imagines somehow in his head that his offense can do. They can't. Lazor proved himself capable of far better play calling and more than likely game planning last season when given the chance. Yeah, it was against lesser ranked defenses but Nagy couldn't even scheme well against those teams and score points. I don't see Pace and GMcC firing Matt Nagy now but if they can either by persuasion or brute force under threat of firing him get Nagy to do what I've suggested they will have all but neutered his worse impulses as an OC/HC and force him to coach his entire team. Now lets see what the actual game plan is going forward. We'll know more later today. Edited September 30, 2021 by soulman 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 11 hours ago, soulman said: Lazor proved himself capable to far better play calling and more than likely game planning last season when given the chance. Yeah, it was against lesser ranked defenses but Nagy couldn't even scheme well against those teams and score points. I've never been convinced that Lazor ever took over play-calling last year despite what we were being fed by him and the media. NOT ONCE....and nobody is ever going to be able to convince me otherwise. The play-calling and offensive design was so much similar and it's hard to believe that Nagy of all people suddenly just swallowed his pride and didn't still have his on hand the wheel. I don't buy it. I LOVED it when the news broke about Nagy giving up play-calling but the games themselves speak louder than words. We were still seeing the constant 3 level concepts being ran by the wrong players (i.e why is a 30 year old Graham being used 20 yards down field when you have Arob, Miller, and Mooney on the roster while they were running 3-12 yard routes. The QB is going to be under pressure or sacked by the time Graham finishes his route so what's the point?). We were also seeing the same unnecessary "trick plays" in the red zone, and we were still using stretch plays in short down situations from heavy sets and using WRs as primary outside blockers like that's a good idea. Your basically telling the defense what your running before you even snap the ball. Nagy's play calling and use of personal has been abysmal and I've been saying it since day 1 and it hasn't changed. However, Nagy has shown some strong points that you like to see in a good HC and that's why I do think he can be a good HC with more experience. I just don't think it's going to be here because his ego won't let him to admit to himself that he isn't fit to run an offense and he isn't going to be allowed enough time to reach his peak and rightfully so. Remember, this was Nagy's first HC job and I think he put more on himself than he was ready to handle. Coaches are still learning too and I think people forget this. Remember, before Reid became the "guru" we see him now, he took alot of crap earlier on in due to his play-calling and game-time decisions in the playoffs and it took him a long time to figure out what worked and what didn't it. I think Nagy would've been better off bringing in a good OC to run the offense while he learned the nuances of what it takes to be a HC first before diving head first into both positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulman Posted September 30, 2021 Share Posted September 30, 2021 3 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: I think Nagy would've been better off bringing in a good OC to run the offense while he learned the nuances of what it takes to be a HC first before diving head first into both positions. Isn't that what's being suggested? It is by me at any rate. And wasn't Lazor the one wearing the headset and holding play call sheet last season after the bye week when Mitch started again. If they were faking it that were faking it pretty hard. I'm way past thinking Nagy will ever work out in Chicago. I wish him well if he believes that one day he'll become an excellent HC. I have my doubts if only because regardless of what he may say in a presser he's never even been honest with himself. He's not the guy we want coaching Justin Fields. It's a very bad match. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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