Week 17: VIKINGS (7-8) at Packers (12-3)

[Purplexing]

8 hours ago, Uncle Buck said:

I'm not saying Mond is the answer at this point, but it sure sounds like it's time for Zimmer to get his walking papers.  He's never going to change.

Despite saying you're unsure, you're implying Zimmer should have played Mond.  But you don't have the detailed knowledge of the coaches as regards which backup QB gives the Vikings the best chance to win.  The pre-season is the time for testing young QBs in real-game situations without risk of losing meaningful games.  And, weekly practices and team meetings are another indicator where only the coaches have inside info on the matter.

I trust the coaches to make the best decisions as to available players for each game and situation.  But, that isn't saying I trust them to prepare and field the best team to win games - that falls on the coaches, the GM, the scouts, the trainers, the front-office personnel, and the owner.

As regards never changing, the coaches under Zimmer changed, to a greater extent of turnover than is typical in NFL teams, leading to discontinuities and changes in philosophy that impact player development and performance.  That points to organizational problems that cannot be overlooked, but which have been by fans who cannot see the bigger picture.

[SteelKing728]

I only watched the first half but I'm glad we scored and Mond had a chance to play.

Moral victories lol

[Worm Guts]

45 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

Despite saying you're unsure, you're implying Zimmer should have played Mond.  But you don't have the detailed knowledge of the coaches as regards which backup QB gives the Vikings the best chance to win.  The pre-season is the time for testing young QBs in real-game situations without risk of losing meaningful games.  And, weekly practices and team meetings are another indicator where only the coaches have inside info on the matter.

I trust the coaches to make the best decisions as to available players for each game and situation.  But, that isn't saying I trust them to prepare and field the best team to win games - that falls on the coaches, the GM, the scouts, the trainers, the front-office personnel, and the owner.

As regards never changing, the coaches under Zimmer changed, to a greater extent of turnover than is typical in NFL teams, leading to discontinuities and changes in philosophy that impact player development and performance.  That points to organizational problems that cannot be overlooked, but which have been by fans who cannot see the bigger picture.

I don't know about starting Mond, but it was pretty weird to give him a series then pull him. Then his response after the game was pretty negative.  If he felt that negatively about Mond, why even bother with the one series?

[SemperFeist]

8 minutes ago, Worm Guts said:

I don't know about starting Mond, but it was pretty weird to give him a series then pull him. Then his response after the game was pretty negative.  If he felt that negatively about Mond, why even bother with the one series?

Mannion was getting treatment on his hand. 

[PrplChilPill]

3 hours ago, Purplexing said:

Thanks for the thorough discussion!  I agree with most of your diagnosis.

I'll add to this reply later, when time permits.  But one item requires an immediate, short rebuttal; New England, Pittsburgh, and Green Bay have had success playing in colder northern US cities, and have been able to attract and retain top talent - in players, coaches and execs.  In short, success starts at the top, with owners who understand their business, and hire the right people to carry it out.  Hence, Max Winter, etc. and Bud Grant, Jerry Burns, ... vs. Red McCombs and Green and Tice, then The "Wiffs" (sic) and Spielman, Childress, Frazier, and Zimmer.

The Twin Cities is on of the larger metro areas....this idea that no one wants to live there is silliness. Indeed, more people moved to MN in recent years, than out of it.

[PrplChilPill]

3 hours ago, Purplexing said:

Despite saying you're unsure, you're implying Zimmer should have played Mond.  But you don't have the detailed knowledge of the coaches as regards which backup QB gives the Vikings the best chance to win.  The pre-season is the time for testing young QBs in real-game situations without risk of losing meaningful games.  And, weekly practices and team meetings are another indicator where only the coaches have inside info on the matter.

I trust the coaches to make the best decisions as to available players for each game and situation.  But, that isn't saying I trust them to prepare and field the best team to win games - that falls on the coaches, the GM, the scouts, the trainers, the front-office personnel, and the owner.

As regards never changing, the coaches under Zimmer changed, to a greater extent of turnover than is typical in NFL teams, leading to discontinuities and changes in philosophy that impact player development and performance.  That points to organizational problems that cannot be overlooked, but which have been by fans who cannot see the bigger picture.

I don't agree with your last point. The D didn't change, it was his. The O? It had the same philosophy while he was here. Specifics may have changed, but the ideas never did. Run first. Try to control the clock. 

That point aside, I agree with you that coaches have a better idea then we do about players. 100%. Doesn't make them always right, but they have more info than we can ever have.

Edited January 3, 2022 by PrplChilPill

[Purplexing]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:36 AM, PrplChilPill said:

The Twin Cities is on of the larger metro areas....this idea that no one wants to live there is silliness. Indeed, more people moved to MN in recent years, than out of it.

I wonder about the recent population movements in/ out of the Metro area.  Perhaps to rural areas, but not likely any increase to the urban area.

I agree that the STATE is a desirable place to live.  But I didn't explicitly mention it because my post was a refutation of the theory that MN is unattractive to free agents and contracted players, leading to lesser chances of building a winning franchise (counter examples of cold weather teams with multiple franchise championships that I offered were Pitts, NE, GB).

[Purplexing]

On 1/3/2022 at 11:38 AM, PrplChilPill said:

I don't agree with your last point. The D didn't change, it was his. The O? It had the same philosophy while he was here. Specifics may have changed, but the ideas never did. Run first. Try to control the clock. 

That point aside, I agree with you that coaches have a better idea then we do about players. 100%. Doesn't make them always right, but they have more info than we can ever have.

I'm not a pro coach, but theorize that Zimmer knows his D is weak this year and used a less risky offensive game-plan to avoid turnovers that put the D back on the field.  IOW, the offensive strategy was instituted to protect against turnovers that might likely lead to points scored by the opponents.  Running the ball is another such strategy to control the clock and reduce the time their D was on the field.   Just my $.02.

[PrplChilPill]

6 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

I wonder about the recent population movements in/ out of the Metro area.  Perhaps to rural areas, but not likely any increase to the urban area.

I agree that the STATE is a desirable place to live.  But I didn't explicitly mention it because my post was a refutation of the theory that MN is unattractive to free agents and contracted players, leading to lesser chances of building a winning franchise (counter examples of cold weather teams with multiple franchise championships that I offered were Pitts, NE, GB).

The data is available on line. People are moving to the metro....

[PrplChilPill]

3 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

I'm not a pro coach, but theorize that Zimmer knows his D is weak this year and used a less risky offensive game-plan to avoid turnovers that put the D back on the field.  IOW, the offensive strategy was instituted to protect against turnovers that might likely lead to points scored by the opponents.  Running the ball is another such strategy to control the clock and reduce the time their D was on the field.   Just my $.02.

If your D is weak, you need to score more points to win......I haven't done the research, but I'm guessing teams pass for more yards and TDs than run for them. Being afraid of turnovers is one thing I hope the next coach is not.

[Purplexing]

5 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

If your D is weak, you need to score more points to win......I haven't done the research, but I'm guessing teams pass for more yards and TDs than run for them. Being afraid of turnovers is one thing I hope the next coach is not.

How many NFL games are won by teams that are on the short end of the turnover battle?  Very few.

Also, football is a game of field position.  If you disagree, consider the reason why NFL teams kickoff toward the endzone rather than attempt onside kicks each time.  The benefit of recovering onside kicks, considering the odds of succeeding, don't outweigh the more likely loss of 30+ yds of field position.

Edited January 4, 2022 by Purplexing

[PrplChilPill]

4 minutes ago, Purplexing said:

How many NFL games are won by teams that are on the short end of the turnover battle?  Very few.

Also, football is a game of field position.  If you disagree, consider the reason why NFL teams kickoff toward the endzone rather than attempt onside kicks each time.  The benefit of recovering onside kicks, considering the odds of succeeding, don't outweigh the more likely loss of 30+ yds of field position.

That's a terrible example, given the odds....but it is why I hate punts on 4th and short on the other team's side of the 50. It is a turnover. 

How many teams win by not passing as much as other teams, running more on 2nd and long than other teams, and just not scoring as much as other teams? 

[Purplexing]

7 minutes ago, PrplChilPill said:

That's a terrible example, given the odds....but it is why I hate punts on 4th and short on the other team's side of the 50. It is a turnover. 

How many teams win by not passing as much as other teams, running more on 2nd and long than other teams, and just not scoring as much as other teams? 

Attempting a conversion of a 4th down in opponent's territory depends on the circumstances.  Less favorable odds of converting, or making a long FG, strongly suggests punting to avoid loss of 30+ yds of field position.

[Arthur Penske]

On 1/2/2022 at 11:05 PM, Uncle Buck said:

True.  Makes a person long for the glory days of Bud Grant.  Those were some great teams! 

 

There is still time for your all-time great UB!

[GermanVike]

14 hours ago, Purplexing said:

How many NFL games are won by teams that are on the short end of the turnover battle?  Very few.

Also, football is a game of field position.  If you disagree, consider the reason why NFL teams kickoff toward the endzone rather than attempt onside kicks each time.  The benefit of recovering onside kicks, considering the odds of succeeding, don't outweigh the more likely loss of 30+ yds of field position.

Teams on the short end of the turnover battle usually lose....except for when they play the vikings