If you use "he's a product of the team around him" as an argument to discredit a QB, your argument is invalid

[AlexGreen#20]

13 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Westbrook is all about 18 10 10 -12 stats.

Kobe was about winning.

 

Let me backtrack on Bert Jones. He had some good years.
 

The thing to keep in mind in the 70s and early 80s was that WCO efficiency systems were new. Pass happy systems were rare. Guys like Fouts, Andersen, and Montana were amazing. They took to it so well that those systems took over the league going forward.

still, it’s hard to Apples to Apples the Grieses, Bradshaw, Stablers, and Namaths to the early passing system test pilots.

 

I ding Namath because he led the league in picks 4 times, not because he threw interceptions

 

Bradshaw had the second most ints in the league in 79 and led the league his rookie year. It's not like Bradshaw didn't throw a lot of picks even when controlling for his era. 

[SkippyX]

1 hour ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

Bradshaw had the second most ints in the league in 79 and led the league his rookie year. It's not like Bradshaw didn't throw a lot of picks even when controlling for his era. 

Bradshaw had no idea what he was doing for about 2 or 3 years.

Quoting his rookie year stats is cute.

Steve Young in Tampa level cute.

 

Peyton Manning led the league in picks as a rookie and was 2nd in year 4.

Is that significant?

Edited January 16, 2022 by SkippyX

[AlexGreen#20]

8 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Bradshaw had no idea what he was doing for about 2 or 3 years.

Quoting his rookie year stats is cute.

Steve Young in Tampa level cute.

So . . . If Bradshaw had thrown one more pick in 79. He would have led the league in picks twice. Could that be held against him?

Bradshaw threw a bunch of picks in his career. Call a spade a spade.

[Jraider91]

2 hours ago, StatKing said:

The problem is guys in the Cousins/Carr tier are not getting paid as middle tier QBs anymore, they are getting top end money. Hard to put a good supporting cast around a guy who takes up 15% of your cap when he's average at best.

Derek Carr is less than 10% of the salary cap next year, if you don't think an average QB is worth that much then I don't quite know what to tell you. 

[StatKing]

37 minutes ago, Jraider91 said:

Derek Carr is less than 10% of the salary cap next year, if you don't think an average QB is worth that much then I don't quite know what to tell you. 

He was given top 3 money when he signed that extension was he not? When has Carr ever played to that level? It only took until the last year of his contract for him to finally be somewhat affordable.

[Jraider91]

8 minutes ago, StatKing said:

He was given top 3 money when he signed that extension was he not? When has Carr ever played to that level? It only took until the last year of his contract for him to finally be somewhat affordable.

The year prior he played at an extremely high level, broke his ankle game before the playoffs. It is just the way with QBs that they get monster contracts and it is basically just based on time that they always one up each other, Carr has never been more than 12-13% of cap for Raiders. He has performed roughly to that level, contract is fine and has never impeded the Raiders. Poor coaching, drafting, ownership has been as well as Carr not being able to elevate above that as he isn't elite. 

[SkippyX]

57 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said:

So . . . If Bradshaw had thrown one more pick in 79. He would have led the league in picks twice. Could that be held against him?

Bradshaw threw a bunch of picks in his career. Call a spade a spade.

No, we don't hold that against Manning. We don't hold it against Bradshaw.

• Bradshaw was a 112.8 rated SB QB in 4 games in the '70s.
• Griese was a 72.7 rated QB in 3 games by comparison.
• Staubach was a 95.4 rated SB QB in 4 games and Staubach was awesome.
• Namath was 83.3 in his one game.
• Apples to apples, Bradshaw was incredible.

 

Namath was a pick machine. 

He led the league in picks like Steve Young led the league in passer rating.

Bradshaw was a 1 to 1 TD to INT guy in the regular season. Namath was a 0.79 to 1 guy.

If you can't see the difference then just wallow in it.

[AlexGreen#20]

3 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

No, we don't hold that against Manning. We don't hold it against Bradshaw.

• Bradshaw was a 112.8 rated SB QB in 4 games in the '70s.
• Griese was a 72.7 rated QB in 3 games by comparison.
• Staubach was a 95.4 rated SB QB in 4 games and Staubach was awesome.
• Namath was 83.3 in his one game.
• Apples to apples, Bradshaw was incredible.

 

Namath was a pick machine. 

He led the league in picks like Steve Young led the league in passer rating.

Bradshaw was a 1 to 1 TD to INT guy in the regular season. Namath was a 0.79 to 1 guy.

If you can't see the difference then just wallow in it.

Bradshaw threw a lot of picks even after his rookie year. Namath is hella overrated too. Being better than Namath doesn't mean you're good.

judging guys only based on their Superbowl resumes is something that guys only have the benefit of if they've been blessed with an incredible supporting cast.

[seminoles1]

2 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Westbrook is all about 18 10 10 -12 stats.

Kobe was about winning.

I've read the lead-up to your post like 6x and I still have no idea why Westbrook was brought into this.

[Matts4313]

On 1/15/2022 at 11:15 AM, biggie. said:

News flash: 99% of quarterbacks are going to struggle if the supporting cast sucks. Most quarterbacks are in that Cousins/Garoppolo/Carr tier.

Awful quarterbacks that bring a whole team down (Josh Rosen) and ones that drag a bad one kicking and screaming (Brady, Rodgers) are rare.

Both Brady and Rodgers looked extremely average when their surrounding cast sucked as well. So its safe to say its 100%. 

[FrantikRam]

That's really not the issue.

The issue is which QBs make sense to pay 15% of the cap?

The Rams made a mistake in paying Goff - I doubt anyone disagrees on that.

But - the Rams went to a Super Bowl and were tied in the 4th quarter - a play or two different and we win. 

So he was both a QB we could have won a Super Bowl with (especially if Kupp would have been on the field) AND clearly not worth 15-ish percent of the cap. It's about identifying those guys or coming up with a good way to build a team to attempt to overcome it.

[SkippyX]

Hint: Don't pay 15% of the cap to a moron QB who runs a draw to the middle of the field with 14 seconds left and no timeouts.

Then doubles down on thinking it was the right call.

Then applauds fans for attacking referees with thrown objects. (Credit to them)

Then doubles down on that when asked to clarify if he was actually a scumbag encouraging violence against referees.

 

Not only did the imbecile try to get the snap off at 1 second by design...

HE ALSO SPIKED IT!!!! That would have burned that last 1 second anyway. 

🤡

[AlexGreen#20]

18 hours ago, seminoles1 said:

I've read the lead-up to your post like 6x and I still have no idea why Westbrook was brought into this.

It was an extremely poor and transparent strawman.

[NYRaider]

On 1/15/2022 at 9:15 AM, biggie. said:

News flash: 99% of quarterbacks are going to struggle if the supporting cast sucks. Most quarterbacks are in that Cousins/Garoppolo/Carr tier.

Awful quarterbacks that bring a whole team down (Josh Rosen) and ones that drag a bad one kicking and screaming (Brady, Rodgers) are rare.

Carr had a better individual season than Mac, Jimmy, Kirk, etc with significantly less talent around him.

[NYRaider]

20 hours ago, StatKing said:

He was given top 3 money when he signed that extension was he not? When has Carr ever played to that level? It only took until the last year of his contract for him to finally be somewhat affordable.

In 2015 he had just under 4,000 yards/32 TD/8 INT and the Raiders made a jump from being one of the worst teams in the league too competitive. In 2016 he was on pace for over 4,000 yards/30 TD/5 INT before he broke his ankle in week 16 when we were 12-3 and he was a legitimate MVP candidate. When he signed his extension he was 25 years old, had 8,000 yards/60 TD/13 INT over his last two seasons and a 19-10 record over that span.