If you use "he's a product of the team around him" as an argument to discredit a QB, your argument is invalid

[biggie.]

News flash: 99% of quarterbacks are going to struggle if the supporting cast sucks. Most quarterbacks are in that Cousins/Garoppolo/Carr tier.

Awful quarterbacks that bring a whole team down (Josh Rosen) and ones that drag a bad one kicking and screaming (Brady, Rodgers) are rare.

[Emerica]

Nice

[SkippyX]

Every great team is built on team. It comes down to are you a Nick Foles in the moment or a Donovan McNabb.

 

Guys like Aikman, Montana, and Bradshaw were their best in the biggest games.

You can say the 70s Steelers were great as if it somehow negates Bradshaw. So were the Dolphins, and the Raiders, and the Cowboys.

Bradshaw was the one who got it done over and over again.

Aikman had to show up and be his best against SF and Buffalo. Those teams were loaded.

Montana outdueled MVP QBs in 3 of his 4 SB wins. His biggest playoff runs came after his career could have been over after severe injury.

He had to fight off Steve Young in practice every day for 4 years.

[Chiefer]

Literally something I heard from some Chiefs fans offsite about Joe Burrow. 
 

but his numbers when not throwing to Chase arent good, hes basically living off the talent around him like Johnny Manziel and Mike Evans. 

🤦‍♂️🙄

Because Mahomes’ stats are just so great when not throwing to Hill/Kelce right? 

[Dr A W Niloc]

     This is axiomatic.

     Of course, we shouldn't lose sight of fit and specialization.  The last thing an uber talented team such as San Francisco or New England needs is a gunslinger--even a great one--who will put the ball up and the game on the line.  It randomizes an advantage.  Similarly, a Mac Jones, a Carson Strong, or even a Dan Marino could be an unmitigated disaster in 2021-2022 Miami.  Being able to do one thing--even a simple thing--better than everyone else available will work in the right time and place.

     For what it's worth, the list of QBs who failed in good circumstances is longer than the list of those who thrived in bad ones (e.g. Deshaun Watson).

     When we speak of great QBs how much do we concentrate on general, transportable skill sets?

[SkippyX]

Montana is a pretty good example IMO. So is Kurt Warner. (transportable for sure)

KC had 3 playoff wins in 45 years. 2 of them were from Joe's 2 years there.

St Louis and Arizona were pretty much on the level with Detroit and Cleveland. Warner led both franchises to the Super Bowl.

 

 

[Awsi Dooger]

14 hours ago, SkippyX said:

Bradshaw was the one who got it done over and over again.

No kidding. I love the younger fans who look at regular season stats alone and try to discredit Terry Bradshaw. The guy was an absolute nightmare to stop when it mattered. I was desperately rooting for the Cowboys and Rams in those Super Bowls but never expected to defeat Bradshaw in any of them. It was always just a matter of time before the huge game deciding play. 

I attended Dolphins hosting Steelers on a Monday Night late in 1973. The Dolphins were at peak and totally dominated the first half, leading 30-3. Bradshaw was hurt so Joe Gilliam started. Miami harassed Gilliam so thoroughly he completed 3 passes to the Dolphins and none to the Steelers. It has to be the lowest quarterback rating ever. Bradshaw was hobbled but entered the game. He threw 3 interceptions of his own. Massacre, right? Hardly. Bradshaw threw two late touchdown passes. Miami hung on for dear life, 30-26. Nobody rallied like that in the Orange Bowl. All of us were convinced that if the game had gone a few more minutes Bradshaw would have pulled it out.

[AlexGreen#20]

5 hours ago, Awsi Dooger said:

No kidding. I love the younger fans who look at regular season stats alone and try to discredit Terry Bradshaw. The guy was an absolute nightmare to stop when it mattered. I was desperately rooting for the Cowboys and Rams in those Super Bowls but never expected to defeat Bradshaw in any of them. It was always just a matter of time before the huge game deciding play. 

I attended Dolphins hosting Steelers on a Monday Night late in 1973. The Dolphins were at peak and totally dominated the first half, leading 30-3. Bradshaw was hurt so Joe Gilliam started. Miami harassed Gilliam so thoroughly he completed 3 passes to the Dolphins and none to the Steelers. It has to be the lowest quarterback rating ever. Bradshaw was hobbled but entered the game. He threw 3 interceptions of his own. Massacre, right? Hardly. Bradshaw threw two late touchdown passes. Miami hung on for dear life, 30-26. Nobody rallied like that in the Orange Bowl. All of us were convinced that if the game had gone a few more minutes Bradshaw would have pulled it out.

Weird way of saying the Dolphins took their foot off the gas in the second half and the defense played well enough to avoid giving up any more points.

It's hard to evaluate Bradshaw when you consider the lack of respect he had in his own era. He wasn't making pro bowls or getting all-pro nods when he was playing. 

The All Pros at QB during Bradshaw's career were

1970: John Brodie, Daryl Lamonica

1971: Bob Griese, Roger Staubach

1972: Earl Morrall, Joe Namath

1973: John Hadl, Fran Tarkenton

1974: Ken Stabler, Jim Hart

1975: Fran Tarkenton, Ken Anderson

1976: Bert Jones, Ken Stabler

1977: Bob Griese, Bert Jones

1978: Terry Bradshaw, Jim Zorn

1979: Dan Fouts, Brian Sipe

1980: Brian Sipe, Dan Fouts

1981: Ken Anderson, Joe Montana

1982: Dan Fouts, Danny White

1983: Joe Theismann, Dan Marino

His Pro Bowl nods weren't notably better. Holding Bradshaw above guys like Anderson and Stabler is just the result of derivative RANGZ calculus. He's the Kobe Bryant of NFL QB discussions, right down to only having only one questionable MVP in a year where there wasn't really a standout. 

[SkippyX]

Mamba was a top 10 player. A guy like Russell Westbrook is nothing compared to Kobe.
 

Bradshaw was awesome. Discounting the playoffs is a personal choice.

Bert Jones 😀

[StatKing]

21 hours ago, biggie. said:

News flash: 99% of quarterbacks are going to struggle if the supporting cast sucks. Most quarterbacks are in that Cousins/Garoppolo/Carr tier.

Awful quarterbacks that bring a whole team down (Josh Rosen) and ones that drag a bad one kicking and screaming (Brady, Rodgers) are rare.

The problem is guys in the Cousins/Carr tier are not getting paid as middle tier QBs anymore, they are getting top end money. Hard to put a good supporting cast around a guy who takes up 15% of your cap when he's average at best.

[StatKing]

2 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Mamba was a top 10 player. A guy like Russell Westbrook is nothing compared to Kobe.
 

Bradshaw was awesome. Discounting the playoffs is a personal choice.

Bert Jones 😀

I've never heard one person compare Westbrick to Kobe.

[lancerman]

The counter argument to this is that far too many fans excuse obvious flaws in a QB because oh a supporting cast. When Eli Manning was clearly washed you had alot of fans saying “well the rest of the team has issues, it’s not all him”. 
 

The team can have issues and the QB can have issues. That’s not mutually exclusive. 

[SkippyX]

18 minutes ago, StatKing said:

I've never heard one person compare Westbrick to Kobe.

Westbrook is all about 18 10 10 -12 stats.

Kobe was about winning.

 

Let me backtrack on Bert Jones. He had some good years.
 

The thing to keep in mind in the 70s and early 80s was that WCO efficiency systems were new. Pass happy systems were rare. Guys like Fouts, Andersen, and Montana were amazing. They took to it so well that those systems took over the league going forward.

still, it’s hard to Apples to Apples the Grieses, Bradshaw, Stablers, and Namaths to the early passing system test pilots.

 

I ding Namath because he led the league in picks 4 times, not because he threw interceptions

 

[StatKing]

3 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Westbrook is all about 18 10 10 -12 stats.

Kobe was about winning.

 

Let me backtrack on Bert Jones. He had some good years.
 

The thing to keep in mind in the 70s and early 80s was that WCO efficiency systems were new. Pass happy systems were rare. Guys like Fouts, Andersen, and Montana were amazing. They took to it so well that those systems took over the league going forward.

still, it’s hard to Apples to Apples the Grieses, Bradshaw, Stablers, and Namaths to the early passing system test pilots.

 

I ding Namath because he led the league in picks 4 times, not because he threw interceptions

 

Kobe was about winning the way he wanted to win. Im old enough to remember his tantrum in the 06 playoffs. You can't judge Bradshaw or Namath on their stats alone.

[AlexGreen#20]

31 minutes ago, SkippyX said:

Mamba was a top 10 player. A guy like Russell Westbrook is nothing compared to Kobe.
 

Bradshaw was awesome. Discounting the playoffs is a personal choice.

Bert Jones 😀

He really wasn't.

Kareem, Lebron, Jordan, Russell, Magic, Wilt, Duncan, Shaq, Hakeem, and Bird is pretty solidly the top 10.