Do you know enough to give up on Deshone Kizer?

[Forge]

11 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said:

Yeah, well I believe San Fran is doing exactly the same thing. They traded for Garoppolo, but he is riding the bench, while they continue to lose under Barkley??? Once they can see exactly where they will draft and the #2 overall pick is guaranteed, they will start Garro to give him some playing time to prepare him for next season. If that isn't tanking, I do not know what is???

Shanny's a pretty clever HC, having learned a lot from his dad and I suspect they want that high pick to help rebuild their team for next season. They know they will not make the playoffs this year, so they look to be tanking as well.

 

Just to clarify on the 49ers: Barkley didn't make the team out of pre-season. We started Brian Hoyer (who was always going to be our starter), then switched to CJ Beathard, our third round pick this year. The main reason that Jimmy G hasn't been starting is that Shanahan's offense is notoriously difficult to learn - quite a few people say it takes a year to get comfortable in (one of the reasons that Hoyer was the target in free agency to sign and start - he had familiarity in the season). 

 Obviously there was no way that Jimmy G was going to come in and start right away given the complexities of the offense. It's been about a month so far, and he's still having to put in extra time with the coaches to learn the ins and outs of it.  The team is actually not playing for draft position (which annoys me to no end as I think that second pick is vital to getting a windfall from a trade), and I would suspect that Jimmy G starts next week against the Bears (though Shanahan was non-committal). We don't have any wiggle room in draft position - if we win one game, we lose the #2 pick (the Giants hold the tie breaker). We also have a few winnable games coming up - The bears, Texans and probably even the Titans to be honest, are all winnable games, even more so if Jimmy G is legit - and if we somehow managed to sweep those, 4 wins would completely destroy our draft position, yet I do suspect that he will start all three of those games. 

[Kiwibrown]

I really enjoyed Kizers game today, he played really well. 

[Kathouse Sticks]

On 11/23/2017 at 7:55 PM, dawgattack said:

His past is a great predictor? He's 21 years old for crying out loud and the third youngest QB to ever start the season for a NFL team....third youngest ever!  Take a look at Terry Bradshaw's and Troy Aikman's stats in their rookie seasons. Horrible stats and they were on horrible teams that had hit rock bottom just like Kizer and the Browns. Their rookie numbers (and second season numbers) certainly weren't predictors of their multiple Super Bowl rings.

That may be true, however, how did they play in college?  What was their history?  He needs playmakers around him, there cannot be any doubt about that.  But, having Jim Brown in the backfield and Jerry Rice running routes is not going to fix his overthrows, or his throwing behind receivers.  It's not. I don't think in the long haul, that's going to be something he can fix.  Look, I think he is physically gifted.  I think he wants to win.  I think he is very competitive.  But at some point, you've gotta make the throws.  He did look better yesterday, but I'm not getting my hopes up, and I hope I'm wrong, but he had these same issues coming out of Notre Dame.

[Kathouse Sticks]

On 11/26/2017 at 1:34 AM, NudeTayne said:

Agreed on all points.  I hope ownership puts this on Hue's shoulders and give Sashi & Co. a bit longer for their rebuild attempt.  I'm happy enough with our drafts/trades/signings thus far to continue to trust in the front office's plan.

I'm not saying Hue is Bill Walsh or Paul Brown, or even Sean McVey.  But, do you really want Sashi Brown and associates drafting one more year for this team?  I don't think so.  They have given Hue NOTHING to work with in order to win.  And I would submit as evidence the wide receiving corp.  It has to be the worst group of wide receivers known to man.  Maybe one (Coleman) NFL caliber WR on the roster (Gordon is, too, but not from this regime).  I could take four of us off this forum and do just as poorly.  Did you see Coleman's endzone drop yesterday?  Kenny Britt was a Brown signing, wasn't he? He's having a great year.  Until we get someone in here with some football knowledge to get some talent in here with all of these picks we have, we're in trouble.  Wasn't it this regime that said Wentz wasn't a top 20 QB?  That should be all you need to know, right there.  Now if Hue's not the guy, then, okay, I can live with that.  But, Sashi and Associates, are DEFINITELY NOT the guys to be in charge of these draft picks.  But in fairness, I would like to hear the picks and signings that they have made that you are happy with.  I'm open to hearing you out.  Garrett?  My grandma could have made that pick.  I think Peppers and Njoku are okay, but not earth shattering when you consider we passed on Watson and Malik Hooker.  I'm sorry, but this front office is clueless, and they have to go, or it's going to get even worse, in my opinion.  Thanks and GO BROWNS!

[elfman1955]

3 hours ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

I'm not saying Hue is Bill Walsh or Paul Brown, or even Sean McVey.  But, do you really want Sashi Brown and associates drafting one more year for this team?  I don't think so.  They have given Hue NOTHING to work with in order to win.  And I would submit as evidence the wide receiving corp.  It has to be the worst group of wide receivers known to man.  Maybe one (Coleman) NFL caliber WR on the roster (Gordon is, too, but not from this regime).  I could take four of us off this forum and do just as poorly.  Did you see Coleman's endzone drop yesterday?  Kenny Britt was a Brown signing, wasn't he? He's having a great year.  Until we get someone in here with some football knowledge to get some talent in here with all of these picks we have, we're in trouble.  Wasn't it this regime that said Wentz wasn't a top 20 QB?  That should be all you need to know, right there.  Now if Hue's not the guy, then, okay, I can live with that.  But, Sashi and Associates, are DEFINITELY NOT the guys to be in charge of these draft picks.  But in fairness, I would like to hear the picks and signings that they have made that you are happy with.  I'm open to hearing you out.  Garrett?  My grandma could have made that pick.  I think Peppers and Njoku are okay, but not earth shattering when you consider we passed on Watson and Malik Hooker.  I'm sorry, but this front office is clueless, and they have to go, or it's going to get even worse, in my opinion.  Thanks and GO BROWNS!

I have to disagree with you, we cant blow this up again. This team has talented players, just not enough yet and they are very young. If anyone should go its Hue, look at some of his play calling, 3rd and 1 he calls for a pass and Kizer gets sacked. With a young QB you run the ball there. Sashi and company should get a chance to see this threw.   Lets say Kizer improves the last 5 games. We could add best RB and WR in the draft in 1st round. In the 2nd we take a CB, OL( I would love Billy Price with middle pick) and free safety. In free agentcy we sign OT, CB,a veteran QB to compete with Kizer (how about Cinn. backup) and players for depth. We could add 4 - 6 new starters. This team will have some talent and when it learns how to win could be a force.

 

elfman

[MWil23]

If/When we get the #1 pick in the draft and pass on the #1 ranked player/QB, I'm done with Sashi, Paul, and Hue effective immediately, and I'll turn into this guy until they win again:

[J-ALL-DAY]

8 hours ago, Kiwibrown said:

I really enjoyed Kizers game today, he played really well. 

His best game by far. His deep ball was on point for the most part and his stats would have looked better had Coleman not dropped that TD pass. I said beginning of the year that weeks 12-17 will tell a lot about Kizer. It was always going to be ugly early on, but he needed to show promise late in the season. Good start, and it could be better if Gordon is still Gordon for the most part. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, MWil23 said:

If/When we get the #1 pick in the draft and pass on the #1 ranked player/QB, I'm done with Sashi, Paul, and Hue effective immediately, and I'll turn into this guy until they win again:

Scrabble got this guy on lock down.

[Kathouse Sticks]

1 hour ago, elfman1955 said:

I have to disagree with you, we cant blow this up again. This team has talented players, just not enough yet and they are very young. If anyone should go its Hue, look at some of his play calling, 3rd and 1 he calls for a pass and Kizer gets sacked. With a young QB you run the ball there. Sashi and company should get a chance to see this threw.   Lets say Kizer improves the last 5 games. We could add best RB and WR in the draft in 1st round. In the 2nd we take a CB, OL( I would love Billy Price with middle pick) and free safety. In free agentcy we sign OT, CB,a veteran QB to compete with Kizer (how about Cinn. backup) and players for depth. We could add 4 - 6 new starters. This team will have some talent and when it learns how to win could be a force.

 

elfman

The problem with your argument, in my opinion, is that you are counting on the front office to execute these picks, and they have not shown the ability to do so.  I think you are giving them too much credit.  And another point that I would make, is that there seems to be discord among the coaches and the front office, beginning with draft picks (ie. Hue wanted Hooker), and the botched trade for McCarron (which I think is a good thing, actually).  So, if Haslam is going to make changes, I am of the opinion it would be the front office that goes, and Hue stays.  Just my opinion, but reports say that Haslam gave the approval to make the McCarron trade, so Hue had convinced him to do so.  January 2 should be very interesting.  If they even wait that long to make changes.  I just don't believe this front office has the football knowledge to make these picks.  Let's put it this way, would YOU give Sashi the control of the 53 man roster?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

45 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

His best game by far. His deep ball was on point for the most part and his stats would have looked better had Coleman not dropped that TD pass. I said beginning of the year that weeks 12-17 will tell a lot about Kizer. It was always going to be ugly early on, but he needed to show promise late in the season. Good start, and it could be better if Gordon is still Gordon for the most part. 

He's really gotta start putting points on the board though.

I can live with some turnovers as long as we're scoring, but he's had trouble making any kind of big plays since very early in the season.

 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

5 minutes ago, Kathouse Sticks said:

The problem with your argument, in my opinion, is that you are counting on the front office to execute these picks, and they have not shown the ability to do so.  I think you are giving them too much credit.  And another point that I would make, is that there seems to be discord among the coaches and the front office, beginning with draft picks (ie. Hue wanted Hooker), and the botched trade for McCarron (which I think is a good thing, actually).  So, if Haslam is going to make changes, I am of the opinion it would be the front office that goes, and Hue stays.  Just my opinion, but reports say that Haslam gave the approval to make the McCarron trade, so Hue had convinced him to do so.  January 2 should be very interesting.  If they even wait that long to make changes.  I just don't believe this front office has the football knowledge to make these picks.  Let's put it this way, would YOU give Sashi the control of the 53 man roster?

People kill me with this idea you can judge a draft class 6-18 months later.  

And just PSA for those who seem to forget, they're going to miss on picks, roughly half of them, just like every other GM.

Im not sure what kind of results folks were expecting to see at this point.

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

He's really gotta start putting points on the board though.

I can live with some turnovers as long as we're scoring, but he's had trouble making any kind of big plays since very early in the season.

 

Well, right now he still struggles big time in the red zone. That isn't really uncommon for young QBs, but that has been a big issue for him. This is why the drop by Coleman was so big. But his deep ball is beautiful. Coleman makes a big difference as for a while he was dealing with utter crap on the outside. If and it's a big IF, Gordon is close to his former self, then this offense has a chance to start doing some things. Gordon/Coleman would be a damn good 1-2 combo, and both have strengths that match up with Kizer's strengths. Heck, maybe Gordon could help solve Kizer's red zone issues. At least Kizer isn't missing nearly as much on high throws as he was to start the season. Now that was brutal. 

[Kiwibrown]

11 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

People kill me with this idea you can judge a draft class 6-18 months later.  

And just PSA for those who seem to forget, they're going to miss on picks, roughly half of them, just like every other GM.

Im not sure what kind of results folks were expecting to see at this point.

you can see how it is contributing now though. I don't think that creates a long term projection however. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Well, right now he still struggles big time in the red zone. That isn't really uncommon for young QBs, but that has been a big issue for him. This is why the drop by Coleman was so big. But his deep ball is beautiful. Coleman makes a big difference as for a while he was dealing with utter crap on the outside. If and it's a big IF, Gordon is close to his former self, then this offense has a chance to start doing some things. Gordon/Coleman would be a damn good 1-2 combo, and both have strengths that match up with Kizer's strengths. Heck, maybe Gordon could help solve Kizer's red zone issues. At least Kizer isn't missing nearly as much on high throws as he was to start the season. Now that was brutal. 

Agreed.

Imo Kizer's biggest issue all season has been the talent at WR.  He hasn't always played well, but they have done nothing to help him which simply can't happen with a rookie qb, let alone one as young as him.

Coleman, Gordon, Njoku, DeValve, and Duke are nice pieces, but he still needs more help next year IMO.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, Kiwibrown said:

you can see how it is contributing now though. I don't think that creates a long term projection however. 

Grading a draft while the players are still rookies is pointless.  

Case in point, what grade would you have given Schobert and Shon Coleman last year? And yet in year two they look like decent starters.

Ogbah improved, C. Coleman looks good (when healthy) this season. DeValve improved, as did Drango, etc.