Cavaliers Thread: We Somehow Both Don't and Do Suck

[buno67]

On 2/14/2018 at 9:36 PM, bruceb said:

It's you, sort of.

Coby conferred with LeBron a couple of times: http://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/Woj22432626/how-cleveland-cavaliers-changed-their-season-flurry-trades-adrian-wojnarowski

Yes, the trades were in part to keep LeBron happy.

But more so, I think, they were made to enable us to win, now, which also would just happen to make LeBron happy. 

I actually think the trades will pay off more next year than this year. If we win it all its all moot but to make all those improvements with these younger guys and still kept the nets pick. Going into next season, those guys will be even better by playing with guys for this season and camp. Also the Cavs will add a top tier rookie or add another legit all-star to the team to go with Lebron.

I honestly cant see lebron leaving. When he left the last time, Cavs had an old roster, no draft capital, no cap room, and no legit players on the roster unless you call Mo Williams one. Heck, 2009 Mo Williams might be the 4th/5th best player on this squad behind James, Love, and Hill. The roster now has legit youthful players for guards, youth in the front court, and a potential draft pick that could change the team drastically by bring in another legit all-star. Depend on what happens, that pick could land the Cavs a better player than Irving (Kawhi or Davis). The odds are very small but who knows, specially if that pick lands in the top3

[FGK]

Yeah, I think the trade deadline was a freaking home run for us. 

You can't judge the return based on Kyrie leaving, because the dude was GONE. Like, you can't keep a guy who says "I'm gonna get season ending surgery if you don't trade me." At that point you gotta get whatever you can and move on.

So, ignoring Kyrie, we basically got rid of three pieces that had ANY value in and of themselves (IT, Crowder, and the pick) and got back a good 3/D point guard, a 3/D young wing who flashes #3/4 guy on a championship team level ability, a very good backup PG to be the scorer for the 2nd unit, and a young/cheap rebounder/energy guy.

We did really well both for this year and next. Like Buno's saying, that Nets pick could stay the pick (if Bron leaves for some reason) and become part of the new core with Hood, Nance, and whoever we get for Kevin Love (he's not staying if Bron leaves). But if Bron commits to staying, it could turn into a disgruntled all-star who wants to take a shot with Lebron.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

11 minutes ago, freakygeniuskid said:

Yeah, I think the trade deadline was a freaking home run for us. 

You can't judge the return based on Kyrie leaving, because the dude was GONE. Like, you can't keep a guy who says "I'm gonna get season ending surgery if you don't trade me." At that point you gotta get whatever you can and move on.

So, ignoring Kyrie, we basically got rid of three pieces that had ANY value in and of themselves (IT, Crowder, and the pick) and got back a good 3/D point guard, a 3/D young wing who flashes #3/4 guy on a championship team level ability, a very good backup PG to be the scorer for the 2nd unit, and a young/cheap rebounder/energy guy.

We did really well both for this year and next. Like Buno's saying, that Nets pick could stay the pick (if Bron leaves for some reason) and become part of the new core with Hood, Nance, and whoever we get for Kevin Love (he's not staying if Bron leaves). But if Bron commits to staying, it could turn into a disgruntled all-star who wants to take a shot with Lebron.

At some point you have to stop worrying about what LeBron want though.  Depending on where we pick, I don’t know if I’m going to trade that guy for someone on a short term deal just to appease LBJ.

To give up a top 3-5 pick in this draft I would need a Paul George level player with multiple years on his deal in return.

[bruceb]

Heard that Nick Gilbert is "recovering well" (whatever that means) after an 8-hour brain surgery.

[Rod Johnson]

22 hours ago, bruceb said:

This still is an issue.

And him wanting to play "hero ball".

It's been an issue every year since LeBron came back up until the playoffs.  Once playoffs start LeBron picks it up on defense.  I understand why players don't like playing with him, but at the end of the day....

Yeah and he really did shade IT at the end of every game it seemed like by dominating the ball.  That was good judgment though.

[Rod Johnson]

On 2/15/2018 at 9:13 PM, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

I guess, but he’s without question the best player to play the game in this era and one of the 2-3 best of all time.  The other dudes, sans Wade, are JAG’s the league will forget about quickly.  Does my boss work as hard as me? I don’t know, but it doesn’t much matter, I do what I’m told.  And if you don’t think LeBron is their boss.....

It’s really that easy.

Agreed.

Thomas, Rose, Wade, etc. don't think they're JAGs.  That was the issue, these new guys know what they are.

Even players who are great can only play with LeBron if they let their ego subside, it's why Love is the unsung hero of our team honestly.  Kyrie eventually couldn't take delegating to him forever.  Can't fault him for it, it's unrealistic to expect a phenom to want to play in the shadow of somebody else.  Basketball has so much more to do with player ego than football.  Even playing intramurals you can realize sometimes it's better to have 1-2 ball dominant players than 4+, even if those 4 are "better at basketball" than their replacements.  Idk I'm rambling now I love playing b-ball.

[bruceb]

2 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Thomas, Rose, Wade, etc. don't think they're JAGs.  That was the issue, these new guys know what they are.

Even players who are great can only play with LeBron if they let their ego subside, it's why Love is the unsung hero of our team honestly.  Kyrie eventually couldn't take delegating to him forever.  Can't fault him for it, it's unrealistic to expect a phenom to want to play in the shadow of somebody else.  Basketball has so much more to do with player ego than football.  Even playing intramurals you can realize sometimes it's better to have 1-2 ball dominant players than 4+, even if those 4 are "better at basketball" than their replacements.  Idk I'm rambling now I love playing b-ball.

Why don't you focus on LT so that we have one less puzzle piece to find?

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

24 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Thomas, Rose, Wade, etc. don't think they're JAGs.  That was the issue, these new guys know what they are.

Agreed.

24 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Even players who are great can only play with LeBron if they let their ego subside, it's why Love is the unsung hero of our team honestly.  Kyrie eventually couldn't take delegating to him forever.  Can't fault him for it, it's unrealistic to expect a phenom to want to play in the shadow of somebody else. 

Kyrie will never be the player LeBron is, it’s not a slight to defer to someone who could one day be argued as the GOAT. Being Pippen isn’t a bad thing.

24 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Basketball has so much more to do with player ego than football. 

For sure.  Ego is the cause of a lot of good teams to break up.  The Cavs are just the most recent.  Shaq and Kobe should have won another few.

24 minutes ago, Rod Johnson said:

Even playing intramurals you can realize sometimes it's better to have 1-2 ball dominant players than 4+, even if those 4 are "better at basketball" than their replacements.  Idk I'm rambling now I love playing b-ball.

Me too, but I’m absolutely atrocious.  I mostly just hustle, foul hard and pass way too much.  I’m Ben Wallace without the good defense.

[bruceb]

The Cavs are going to be just fine.

Especially after they get their big.

[H2ThaIzzo]

11 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

At some point you have to stop worrying about what LeBron want though.  Depending on where we pick, I don’t know if I’m going to trade that guy for someone on a short term deal just to appease LBJ.

To give up a top 3-5 pick in this draft I would need a Paul George level player with multiple years on his deal in return.

honestly you don't stop worrying about what LBJ wants until LBJ is gone. Now you have to approach him the right way, show you've got balls to control the situation, the last thing he wants is someone running the Cavaliers coming to him like "LeBron, i was wondering if you would be okay with me trading Iman, Channing etc. for these players". Have a plan, explain the plan, and make it happen. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

6 hours ago, H2ThaIzzo said:

honestly you don't stop worrying about what LBJ wants until LBJ is gone. Now you have to approach him the right way, show you've got balls to control the situation, the last thing he wants is someone running the Cavaliers coming to him like "LeBron, i was wondering if you would be okay with me trading Iman, Channing etc. for these players". Have a plan, explain the plan, and make it happen. 

Ok, maybe I worded that wrong, not STOP worrying about what he wants, but stop putting his wants above the long term viability of the franchise.

I’m just not going to give up a top 3 pick for a guy who could walk at any moment.

[buno67]

8 hours ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Ok, maybe I worded that wrong, not STOP worrying about what he wants, but stop putting his wants above the long term viability of the franchise.

I’m just not going to give up a top 3 pick for a guy who could walk at any moment.

I kinda disagree, you kinda have to put Lebron first. Its all about winning and he gives us the best chance. To me if you have a shot at winning now, you have to take it. You have no idea what the future may hold. The way the league is set up and the unknown on how players develop, you really cant sit there and think truly about long term, when your short term is so promising at the moment.

Say Lebron never came back. I dont think and Irving Wiggin type combo does nothing but some good runs in the playoffs like the raptors. The way Koby handled this trade season, I dont think he is going to trade for a guy who could walk. He might work on a deal that requires a player to sign an ext. Rumors were they might of been something in the works with DJ trade rumors but that he was going to cost too much.

I just know if it comes down to keeping a player drafted or trading for an established all star player, I would rather get the established player. You have no idea how guys pan out. We have seen too many studs in college do nothing in the league. I rather not take that chance, especially if Lebron stays. If Lebron leaves, then I take the chance on the rookie.

[BleedTheClock]

If LeBron leaves, the team is screwed anyways for at least the next 4-5 seasons. Go all-in right now to win with LeBron and if he bolts, nothing we could do. Draft picks are pretty much useless in the NBA and if LeBron really does leave, I can all but guarantee you we shed an enormous amount of cap space and go into tank mode. I don't want to be stuck between a rebuild and a championship. Make a decision and go all-in with it. I'm on the side of go all-in assuming LeBron is staying.

[buno67]

6 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said:

If LeBron leaves, the team is screwed anyways for at least the next 4-5 seasons. Go all-in right now to win with LeBron and if he bolts, nothing we could do. Draft picks are pretty much useless in the NBA and if LeBron really does leave, I can all but guarantee you we shed an enormous amount of cap space and go into tank mode. I don't want to be stuck between a rebuild and a championship. Make a decision and go all-in with it. I'm on the side of go all-in assuming LeBron is staying.

I would want them to blow it up too. Let Lue go and only keep Hood, Nance, Cedic, and Clarkson (if he chooses to stay). I would love for them to try and go after a young stud HC like a Brad Stevens and just build the team around that kind of style. 

[Rod Johnson]

On 2/16/2018 at 7:01 PM, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Agreed.

Kyrie will never be the player LeBron is, it’s not a slight to defer to someone who could one day be argued as the GOAT. Being Pippen isn’t a bad thing.

For sure.  Ego is the cause of a lot of good teams to break up.  The Cavs are just the most recent.  Shaq and Kobe should have won another few.

Me too, but I’m absolutely atrocious.  I mostly just hustle, foul hard and pass way too much.  I’m Ben Wallace without the good defense.

True.  But Kyrie's shine was being blocked by Lebron, since he is capable of being the best offensive player on a championship team.  So I get it, I wish it was otherwise though.

I'm terrible too, I never really learned how to dribble well and that's pretty crippling.  That's definitely the first thing somebody ought to learn when picking up the sport, but I never played anything more than intramural and pickup.  Plus who wants to dribble around cones and other nonsense when they practice when jacking up 3 pointers is so much more fun?