The Lamar offseason talk thread

[jpeter15]

There is still a lot of uncertainty with Lamar. The obvious concerns are  injuries and possibly regression (even beyond the passing people bring up I don’t remember seeing any OMG WOW! runs by him last year). It’s also a concern how he has gone such a different path in handling his career (no agent, looking for a league-altering deal, etc). He may or may not be right about all of that and it doesn’t make him a bad guy but it does make him challenging. He came out of the draft talking only about winning Superbowls, now the impression I have is he’s more focused on maximizing his net worth. Nothing wrong with that for sure but again it makes it challenging for the front office. Lots of guys restructure their deal every year to shift their salary to a bonus to free up cap space. It gets them their money a little earlier which is good for them so it’s win-win. If we go to Lamar asking for a restructure will he do that or will he ask for more money in the process? 
 

To sum up my thoughts:  he’s incredibly dynamic, I love him and want him on the team, he gives us our best chance to win, but he’s also incredibly risky. 

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

1 minute ago, jpeter15 said:

There is still a lot of uncertainty with Lamar. The obvious concerns are  injuries and possibly regression (even beyond the passing people bring up I don’t remember seeing any OMG WOW! runs by him last year). It’s also a concern how he has gone such a different path in handling his career (no agent, looking for a league-altering deal, etc). He may or may not be right about all of that and it doesn’t make him a bad guy but it does make him challenging. He came out of the draft talking only about winning Superbowls, now the impression I have is he’s more focused on maximizing his net worth. Nothing wrong with that for sure but again it makes it challenging for the front office. Lots of guys restructure their deal every year to shift their salary to a bonus to free up cap space. It gets them their money a little earlier which is good for them so it’s win-win. If we go to Lamar asking for a restructure will he do that or will he ask for more money in the process? 
 

To sum up my thoughts:  he’s incredibly dynamic, I love him and want him on the team, he gives us our best chance to win, but he’s also incredibly risky. 

I agree that Lamar is a risk but having no QB is way more precarious of a position 👍 

[Ray Reed]

44 minutes ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

Nothing to add ? Then sit down child. 
 

this is why I typically hate our fans - you’d rather the team be awful than pay it’s star players and risk looking “stupid”. This is the Judon situation all over again. We set up a player for ugly stats, then he will go somewhere else and light it up - and all the idiots who did nothing but cry the entire time will say “gee where was that when he was with us” because their brain doesn’t understand that context exists. Meanwhile we will draft some QB to be our odafe Oweh because instead of paying a good player what he has earned you geniuses would rather just suck and rage post to circle jerk negativity, but it’s all okay because of “muh value”

Ironic, because this is why I hate our fans.

The assumption that the Baltimore Ravens are going to be lost in the woods without Lamar Jackson.

Its almost like people like you forget in the 20 years before Lamar got here we won the 2nd most playoff games in the entire NFL behind the Patriots, and 2 Super Bowls.

But go off, Jaxxxxxxxxxxxxen

[AngusMcFife]

7 minutes ago, jpeter15 said:

There is still a lot of uncertainty with Lamar. The obvious concerns are  injuries and possibly regression (even beyond the passing people bring up I don’t remember seeing any OMG WOW! runs by him last year). It’s also a concern how he has gone such a different path in handling his career (no agent, looking for a league-altering deal, etc). He may or may not be right about all of that and it doesn’t make him a bad guy but it does make him challenging. He came out of the draft talking only about winning Superbowls, now the impression I have is he’s more focused on maximizing his net worth. Nothing wrong with that for sure but again it makes it challenging for the front office. Lots of guys restructure their deal every year to shift their salary to a bonus to free up cap space. It gets them their money a little earlier which is good for them so it’s win-win. If we go to Lamar asking for a restructure will he do that or will he ask for more money in the process? 
 

To sum up my thoughts:  he’s incredibly dynamic, I love him and want him on the team, he gives us our best chance to win, but he’s also incredibly risky. 

 

[jpeter15]

2 minutes ago, AngusMcFife said:

 

Great play. Long run. But I’m talking about those plays where he makes a bunch of guys look silly - Barry Sanders type plays even if they were for 10 yards. Nobody else noticed this? He’s still among the most elusive in the league but just not what I was used to from previous years. 

[AngusMcFife]

2 minutes ago, jpeter15 said:

Great play. Long run. But I’m talking about those plays where he makes a bunch of guys look silly - Barry Sanders type plays even if they were for 10 yards. Nobody else noticed this? He’s still among the most elusive in the league but just not what I was used to from previous years. 

I gotcha. I think Lamar got his weight up to 220+ so he's stronger but slightly less elusive. 

Also, defenders study the moves of opposing players. They know how to position themselves better to not be embarrassed. 

But overall, Lamar averaged 6.8 y/c this year, and it was 6.9 in 2019. So regardless of splashy moves, his running efficiency is just as good as it was in 2019. With fewer fumbles. 

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

8 minutes ago, jpeter15 said:

Great play. Long run. But I’m talking about those plays where he makes a bunch of guys look silly - Barry Sanders type plays even if they were for 10 yards. Nobody else noticed this? He’s still among the most elusive in the league but just not what I was used to from previous years. 

I think pretty much every skill player on the offence was demoralized because it was very clear that no amount of talent or hard work could overcome Greg Roman being Greg Roman. Not many teams lose their #1 wide out and alienate their rb1 by that kind of sheer ineptitude.

Tough to imagine seeing Lamar risk his career with superman runs for a team and fan base that won’t commit to him and a Cheeto fingered OC who thinks the forward pass is just a phase. 

Edited March 10, 2023 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[DreamKid]

What I don't get is just what is Lamar asking for that the team flat out won't do- and  they can't work around? 

Like if they don't want to fully guarantee 250 Million or whatever it is, then why not just do a shorter deal that's fully guaranteed like Cousins did? That way Lamar gets the league topping AAV bump, the guarantee, and then he can renegotiate in 2-3 years. Is that not a win win for Lamar?

Even if the worst happened and Lamar tore an ACL or something he'd still just recover and rehab like every other player. The timing of his recent injuries have sucked, but they weren't crippling to him physically. Our fear levels shouldn't be so high that a 2-3 year extension can't be guaranteed. Five or seven years and maybe I can understand some trepidation, but why would Lamar be insistent on locking in a deal that long anyway?

It just seems weird that there hasn't been any movement on whatever the sticking point between them is.

[Xmad]

44 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Ironic, because this is why I hate our fans.

The assumption that the Baltimore Ravens are going to be lost in the woods without Lamar Jackson.

Its almost like people like you forget in the 20 years before Lamar got here we won the 2nd most playoff games in the entire NFL behind the Patriots, and 2 Super Bowls.

But go off, Jaxxxxxxxxxxxxen

Our QBs in that time period peaked at Joe Flacco.

Let's give the modern front office some credit by drafting multiple pro bowl QBs and high end starters.

In the modern era (Going back to 2013 and our post super bowl run) the franchise has drafted two pro bowl QBs, and successfully moved on from an aging flacco who had become unreliable and had injury issues.

The guy we replaced Flacco with now wants to get paid, we do have a pro bowl backup QB on the roster so maybe we can look to future NFL hall of famer Tyler Huntley to produce half as good as Lamar maybe? What's that.... he's.....not good?

Baltimore does not have a replacement plan for Jackson, our best bet is the draft but again we're either trading up for a QB or hoping one falls to us or waiting a year and rolling with Huntley in hopes the 2024 class has a much better option if we don't see a guy we like.

This isn't 2018 where we are fully ready to move on from our former franchise QB because we already have the guy lined up, we're entering QB purgatory without a clear cut solution. 

Props to the front office for doing it last time, this time they didn't prepare and now we're dealing with the repercussions.

8 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

What I don't get is just what is Lamar asking for that the team flat out won't do- and  they can't work around? 

Like if they don't want to fully guarantee 250 Million or whatever it is, then why not just do a shorter deal that's fully guaranteed like Cousins did? That way Lamar gets the league topping AAV bump, the guarantee, and then he can renegotiate in 2-3 years. Is that not a win win for Lamar?

Even if the worst happened and Lamar tore an ACL or something he'd still just recover and rehab like every other player. The timing of his recent injuries have sucked, but they weren't crippling to him physically. Our fear levels shouldn't be so high that a 2-3 year extension can't be guaranteed. Five or seven years and maybe I can understand some trepidation, but why would Lamar be insistent on locking in a deal that long anyway?

It just seems weird that there hasn't been any movement on whatever the sticking point between them is.

More than likely there's something else besides guaranteed money that's holding them up, ravens more than likely made him the highest paid player in the NFL with an offer without as much guarantees as Watson or Kyler. As for what that actually is, unknown outside of Lamar's and Decosta's camp.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

17 minutes ago, DreamKid said:

What I don't get is just what is Lamar asking for that the team flat out won't do- and  they can't work around? 

Let's get crazy with these.

I think Lamar is asking them to put a statue of him in place of Ray Lewis' statue and publicly announce that Ray was guilty of murder.

[jpeter15]

Other interesting aspect is everyone saying Lamar has horribly mishandled this by not having an agent. It’s possible but if he had an agent he probably would have signed something similar to what Josh Allen got and I’m guessing the Ravens current offer exceeds that deal even taking into account playing on the 5th year option. We’ll see how it turns out but it seems to be beneficial to wait to do your deal and make it as short as possible. This applies more to guys that don’t rely on their athleticism as much at least. 
 

also, Bengals are known for being one of the cheaper teams and their ownership might have less liquidity than others. If Lamar did get some crazy fully guaranteed deal it would be interesting to see if Burrow refuses an extension and waits to hit the open market to get his fully guaranteed deal. 

[Ray Reed]

41 minutes ago, Xmad said:

Our QBs in that time period peaked at Joe Flacco.

Let's give the modern front office some credit by drafting multiple pro bowl QBs and high end starters.

In the modern era (Going back to 2013 and our post super bowl run) the franchise has drafted two pro bowl QBs, and successfully moved on from an aging flacco who had become unreliable and had injury issues.

The guy we replaced Flacco with now wants to get paid, we do have a pro bowl backup QB on the roster so maybe we can look to future NFL hall of famer Tyler Huntley to produce half as good as Lamar maybe? What's that.... he's.....not good?

Baltimore does not have a replacement plan for Jackson, our best bet is the draft but again we're either trading up for a QB or hoping one falls to us or waiting a year and rolling with Huntley in hopes the 2024 class has a much better option if we don't see a guy we like.

This isn't 2018 where we are fully ready to move on from our former franchise QB because we already have the guy lined up, we're entering QB purgatory without a clear cut solution. 

Props to the front office for doing it last time, this time they didn't prepare and now we're dealing with the repercussions.

More than likely there's something else besides guaranteed money that's holding them up, ravens more than likely made him the highest paid player in the NFL with an offer without as much guarantees as Watson or Kyler. As for what that actually is, unknown outside of Lamar's and Decosta's camp.

Let's not pretend like Lamar was any sort of ready as a QB in 2018 when he was inserted into the lineup. We threw the ball like 15/20 times a game Lamar's rookie year and heavily leaned into the "run the ball every play and play defense" method of playing games. You had a good amount of people post-2018 season saying Lamar couldn't throw an NFL size football. It wasn't until 2019 where we really operated with Lamar as a legitimate QB.

The point is we leaned into what we had to lean into, and played how we had to play until we figured it out and came out gangbusters in 2019, yet we still ended the season 6-1. The Ravens did the same thing this last year when Lamar went down and went 3-3. We won in Pittsburgh with an UDFA for God's sake.

With an entire offseason to figure it out, the Ravens would not go like 5-12 without Lamar Jackson. That's the main point. It just is what it is. We have way too good of a roster and coaching staff for that to happen. We've been under .500 twice since the 2012 SB and they were both caused by catastrophic, historically bad injury plagued seasons (2015 and 2021).

Even the seasons people point to as "proof" that the Ravens were somehow "saved" by Lamar Jackson is the stretch from 2015-2017, and 2015 was as bad injury-wise as last year, 2016 we were 8-8 and 2017 we were 9-7 and a freak 4th and 12 TD bomb against Cincy from being 10-6 and the hottest team in the NFL playoffs. Lamar didn't pick up a 4-12 team off the ground. The Ravens have always been consistently good. And people acting like we'll fall apart without him are just in their feelings about his contract, and ignoring reality and history.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ray Reed

[Xmad]

32 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

Let's not pretend like Lamar was any sort of ready as a QB in 2018 when he was inserted into the lineup. We threw the ball like 15/20 times a game Lamar's rookie year and heavily leaned into the "run the ball every play and play defense" method of playing games. You had a good amount of people post-2018 season saying Lamar couldn't throw an NFL size football. It wasn't until 2019 where we really operated with Lamar as a legitimate QB.

The point is we leaned into what we had to lean into, and played how we had to play until we figured it out and came out gangbusters in 2019, yet we still ended the season 6-1. The Ravens did the same thing this last year when Lamar went down and went 3-3. We won in Pittsburgh with an UDFA for God's sake.

With an entire offseason to figure it out, the Ravens would not go like 5-12 without Lamar Jackson. That's the main point. It just is what it is. We have way too good of a roster and coaching staff for that to happen. We've been under .500 twice since the 2012 SB and they were both caused by catastrophic, historically bad injury plagued seasons (2015 and 2021).

Even the seasons people point to as "proof" that the Ravens were somehow "saved" by Lamar Jackson is the stretch from 2015-2017, and 2015 was as bad injury-wise as last year, 2016 we were 8-8 and 2017 we were 9-7 and a freak 4th and 12 TD bomb against Cincy from being 10-6 and the hottest team in the NFL playoffs. Lamar didn't pick up a 4-12 team off the ground. The Ravens have always been consistently good. And people acting like we'll fall apart without him are just in their feelings about his contract, and ignoring reality and history.

My boy really trying to justify QB purgatory.

[ThatJaxxenGuy]

41 minutes ago, Ray Reed said:

 

With an entire offseason to figure it out, the Ravens would not go like 5-12 without Lamar Jackson. That's the main point. It just is what it is. 

You fundamentally misunderstand the issue then. There isn’t an entire offseason to figure It out unless we pay Lamar. Otherwise, teams can’t even negotiate a potential trade for Lamar until free agency begins and are incredibly unlikely to do so early because any offer they make sits on their salary cap until the Ravens match it, freezing their ability to negotiate with other players. Also, teams are pretty unlikely to trade for Lamar until after the draft because they can use 2024 and 2025 picks to trade for him rather than an early pick this year. As such, if we don’t plan on paying Lamar what he wants, we likely can’t even move off the franchise money until after the draft - meaning the team is paralyzed until the end of April,  unable to sign any free agents and making draft picks without even knowing if they have a QB

this is the problem with not paying Lamar asap - there is no offseason if we don’t. Lamar has all the leverage unless the Ravens want to stand pat without a clear vision while the rest of the league is building their arsenal.

Edited March 10, 2023 by ThatJaxxenGuy

[Ray Reed]

9 minutes ago, ThatJaxxenGuy said:

You fundamentally misunderstand the issue then. There isn’t an entire offseason to figure It out unless we pay Lamar. Otherwise, teams can’t even negotiate a potential trade for Lamar until free agency begins. Also, teams are pretty unlikely to trade Lamar until after the draft because they can use 2024 and 2025 picks to trade for him rather than an early pick this year. As such, if we don’t plan on paying Lamar what he wants, we can’t even move off the franchise money until after the draft - meaning the team is paralyzed until April.

this is the problem with not paying Lamar asap - there is no offseason if we don’t. 

And that is unequivocally Lamar's choice, not the Ravens.

If Lamar continues to balk at our extension offer, he's playing 2023 on the tag. That means he's contracted to play for this team next season once he signs the tag.

From there, he can choose to have a full offseason and learn the new offense, or not. He'd probably choose not, but that's his prerogative, not the Ravens. It all cycles back to this weird cognitive dissonance you have that refuses to acknowledge anything but "if Ravens don't pay Lamar everything he's asking, Ravens FO bad. Ravens FO villain. Lamar good. Lamar savior".

That's not the reality of the situation. He's holding the team hostage. And the notion that he was the "savior" of a team that was 5th, 12th, and 7th in DVOA ( @AngusMcFife DVOA reference for ya) in the league in the three seasons before he got here (excluding the 2015 season where literally every player got hurt) is laughable. We're not falling into purgatory without Lamar Jackson. We were starting 2 UDFAs in his absence last year and went 3-3, and were one freak goalline fumble away from matching our playoff wins with Lamar in one start under Tyler Huntley.

Edited March 10, 2023 by Ray Reed