StLunatic88 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, kgarrett12486 said: I really liked Pham, but I think he's shown in 2018 what you can expect from him as an everyday CF over 145+ games. Plus. His defense in CF drastically fell off this year. Looking at trends in baseball show that majority of CFs have a steep decline in defensive metrics after 30-31 years of age... That is the big one for me. I liked Pham alot too, I pimped him a ton last year (especially vs Adams) but he is not the same player this year. I dont think this year is indicative of his expected output oing forward either, but he likely falls somewhere in the middle. But that production, at 30+ y/o just going into Arb with declining Defense? Its just alot of factors going against him. Better to move on now than later when he is pissed with what he gets in Arbitration. To your other point, I dont think we should expect this to be the only Vet OF moved from this roster either. I just dont see Fowler playing out the next 3 seasons here. And going into next year if we havent been able to completely turn the bus around, and are in a similar situation, You could see Ozuna being moved as well. Especially if contract talks arent going well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris00cm Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Not that MLB Pipeline is the end all of prospect rankings, but they put Justin Williams at #9. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: That is the big one for me. I liked Pham alot too, I pimped him a ton last year (especially vs Adams) but he is not the same player this year. I dont think this year is indicative of his expected output oing forward either, but he likely falls somewhere in the middle. But that production, at 30+ y/o just going into Arb with declining Defense? Its just alot of factors going against him. Better to move on now than later when he is pissed with what he gets in Arbitration. To your other point, I dont think we should expect this to be the only Vet OF moved from this roster either. I just dont see Fowler playing out the next 3 seasons here. And going into next year if we havent been able to completely turn the bus around, and are in a similar situation, You could see Ozuna being moved as well. Especially if contract talks arent going well. No doubt. He's probably better than 2018 numbers, but think he's closer to a .260-.270 type hitter than a .290+ and likely to hit closer to 20 HRs vs. what we thought was the potential for 30 heading into this year. He'll probably be better base stealer in Tampa, but as you eluded too the defense eroding outweighs that. He's not the star we thought he'd take off and become. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 The only thing I'll complain about with the Pham trade is that we got yet another OF player. At least he's young. We need to continue to cull out some OF guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 28 minutes ago, kgarrett12486 said: Haven't had a chance to dig into the return yet, but from hearing 1st reports sounds like an ok return. Nothing great. After the season Pham has put up in 2018, wasn't expecting a great return anyway... Based on what I've seen, that's my feeling as well. Williams seems tooled up, but doesn't seem to be able to consistently play up to those tools. Genesis Cabrera seems like the more interesting type. Dynamic lefty reliever if they can't get that slider worked out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris00cm Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 34 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Flourish? Im not sure who you think has done that? Because it hasnt been Piscotty or Grichuck. They have been exactly what we knew they were, and that wasnt nearly enough to get this team into contention. I still have high hopes for Grichuk and will forever hate that deal. I find it ironic that the same people that hated him are really hyped about Tyler O'Neil... they are the same players. Piscotty has turned it around in Oakland but I really like Max Schrock. Matt Adams, Marco Gonzales, Kyle Barraclough are other guys that have produced well since leaving. This is a shot in the dark, but I am really curious to see what Luke Voit does in New York. If they give him a chance I think he will thrive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, chris00cm said: I still have high hopes for Grichuk and will forever hate that deal. I find it ironic that the same people that hated him are really hyped about Tyler O'Neil... they are the same players. Piscotty has turned it around in Oakland but I really like Max Schrock. Matt Adams, Marco Gonzales, Kyle Barraclough are other guys that have produced well since leaving. This is a shot in the dark, but I am really curious to see what Luke Voit does in New York. If they give him a chance I think he will thrive. The major difference between O'Neill and Grichuk is that Grichuk was an average defensive CFer, and you were willing to put up with his swing and misses because you were getting the power. But when the defense starts to fall off, you're not as willing to live with those issues. At the time, the Cardinals had Tommy Pham as the better option in CF and had Harrison Bader to back him up. O'Neill is clearly the better player, but he doesn't offer that CF value. Obviously, he's not going to hit with the same amount of power as he's currently posting, but he's a 30+ HR guy pretty easily if he plays everyday. As for Voit, he's a career AAAA player. I mean, it'd be one thing if he hit really well, but he's an average hitter and isn't great defensively. He's a serviceable bat, but his value is limited as a bench player since he offers no versatility. Nothing Matt Adams is doing now is different than before, the Cardinals had a short leash on him. Still has his issues against lefties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 MLB new prospect rankings... Justin Williams #9 Genesis Cabrera #14 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
holt_bruce81 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 So who sits? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StLunatic88 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, holt_bruce81 said: So who sits? I imagine it will be a rotation of the 3 (Bader, Fowler, O"Neil) with O'Neil getting the short end until Fowler either nose dives more, or turns it around and we try to move him through waivers (pipedream) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 34 minutes ago, chris00cm said: I still have high hopes for Grichuk and will forever hate that deal. I find it ironic that the same people that hated him are really hyped about Tyler O'Neil... they are the same players. Piscotty has turned it around in Oakland but I really like Max Schrock. Matt Adams, Marco Gonzales, Kyle Barraclough are other guys that have produced well since leaving. This is a shot in the dark, but I am really curious to see what Luke Voit does in New York. If they give him a chance I think he will thrive. Grichuk had several shots here to take off. He failed miserably. You can only offer so many shots. O'Neill has better power potential. He's arguably one of the best power prospect in all the minors. He has 40 HR potential. Grichuk doesn't have that. O'Neill has also shown ability to increase his walks. Grichuk never figured that out... Matt Adams was same story. Had every shot in world and failed. Can't hang on forever. He's been decent, but still can't hit a lefty at all. He's not an every day player. Like I said earlier, Barraclaugh was an unknown for everyone and Gonzales needs to put together more than one solid year before we anoint him. Plus, he had no spot here with what he had in place and the pipeline. I think any of us would have said he was the guy to go out of Weaver, Reyes, Flaherty and Hudson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MOSteelers56 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I imagine it will be a rotation of the 3 (Bader, Fowler, O"Neil) with O'Neil getting the short end until Fowler either nose dives more, or turns it around and we try to move him through waivers (pipedream) I bet it will be more a Fowler/O'Neil rotation in RF. I'd bet Bader plays the majority of the year in CF. He's the only CF on the roster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 17 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: I imagine it will be a rotation of the 3 (Bader, Fowler, O"Neil) with O'Neil getting the short end until Fowler either nose dives more, or turns it around and we try to move him through waivers (pipedream) Yep from what I've heard, O'Neill and Bader will split CF and all 3 will mix in RF... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kgarrett12486 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 hour ago, CWood21 said: Based on what I've seen, that's my feeling as well. Williams seems tooled up, but doesn't seem to be able to consistently play up to those tools. Genesis Cabrera seems like the more interesting type. Dynamic lefty reliever if they can't get that slider worked out. From what I've heard, Williams plate approach is big issue for him not tapping into his offensive potential this far, Cards think with our minor league instructors can correct this... Cabrera will be given every shot to be a SP... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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