2024 NFL Draft

[jimkelly02]

On 11/15/2023 at 6:13 AM, Styrian Raider said:

Those things are always easier said than done.
FWIW Mayock said he tried to both trade up for Bosa or Williams and down. Couldn't find a trade partner.

That’s ONE example, not the majority of the situations I’m talking about.  Honestly, I don’t even believe that story from Mayock.  Josh Allen, the Kentucky not the QB, was still on the board and was expected by most to be the pick.  I’m sure there was a team willing to trade up for him.

let me correct history on this situation:

1) Mayock was unwilling to give up enough compensation to make a trade up to 2 or 3 happen.  
2) Mayock wasn’t able to get enough trade compensation where he felt it was worth it to trade back.  In fact, he’s said this in an interview.  It wasn’t that there weren’t any deals to be made, it was that he felt the deals were not rich enough to warrant moving back AND he didn’t like where he could move back to.  He wanted Ferrell and didn’t want to risk trading back too far that he’d not be available.    
 

….but what I was talking about is the “small reaches”.  Example, we take a 5th rounder in the 3rd. 

[Rich7sena]

11 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

To he honest, I don't even know why there's so much hype around either one at this point other than that we were conditioned over the last year or so to accept them as the top 2 QBs expected to be drafted in 2024. 

Neither one looks like someone I'd draft and say "I genuinely believe we're going to be abke to build around this guy for the next 10 or so years." and not have to convince myself of that belief. 

I haven't watched much of Maye, but Williams is supremely talented. He reminds me of a taller Kyler Murray in the sense that the game comes so easy to them that they don't have to be refined to produce.

I think we should graduate from the mindset that if a player does not have a ton of collegiate success, they should not be considered blue-chip prospects. We have seen too many guys succeed in the NFL with marginal college success for that to be a serious factor. I'm saying that's what you're saying, but it feels like an argument we are going to hear around these guys when the draft process heats up.

[big_palooka]

Carson Beck with another clinical day for the Dawgs against a ranked opponent. He likely goes back to school, but if not, he's going to climb quickly up draft boards.

[big_palooka]

12 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

To he honest, I don't even know why there's so much hype around either one at this point other than that we were conditioned over the last year or so to accept them as the top 2 QBs expected to be drafted in 2024. 

Neither one looks like someone I'd draft and say "I genuinely believe we're going to be abke to build around this guy for the next 10 or so years." and not have to convince myself of that belief. 

To be honest.... you're just a negative Nancy who likes to take the contrarian view on everything.

Both have unreal skill sets. Both have little to no talent around them. The draft is always a crapshoot. If you are waiting for a sure thing, you'll be waiting forever. But you can't look at the raw skill and ability of these two as passers and not understand the hype around them.

 

 

[BackinBlack]

15 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Over his last two games JJ McCarthy has 20 completions for 200 yards, 0 TD, 1 INT

as i know your a big W/L is a qb stat guy, you must be a little concerned about Williams ending 1/5 right? 
or would you say his team played a big factor in them losing?

[NYRaider]

4 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

as i know your a big W/L is a qb stat guy, you must be a little concerned about Williams ending 1/5 right? 
or would you say his team played a big factor in them losing?

I don't worry about college W/L for QB

[BackinBlack]

12 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I don't worry about college W/L for QB

may I ask why it doesnt bother you in college, but does in NFL?
talent gaps exist in college but not  in nfl? 
can have a bad D in college but not in the NFL?

[NYRaider]

55 minutes ago, BackinBlack said:

may I ask why it doesnt bother you in college, but does in NFL?
talent gaps exist in college but not  in nfl? 
can have a bad D in college but not in the NFL?

Because the NFL is the best of the best. Talent level between teams is marginal at best so often times QB is the deciding factor.

[BackinBlack]

24 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

Because the NFL is the best of the best. Talent level between teams is marginal at best so often times QB is the deciding factor.

Interesting. 
I disagree, the difference between bottom tier teams and upper is pretty noticeable imo. 
for a guy who cries over us not drafting Carter, it seems weird for you to now be saying talent level between teams is pretty equal. 
 

we’ve been near bottom talent level for most of the last what 20 years? We finally out of the bottom though last 4 or 5 years. But the top tiered teams are clearly better than us, and have much higher end talent along with better depth.

[ronjon1990]

13 hours ago, NYRaider said:

Do you like to just go against the narrative? 

No. 

"Just going against the narrative" would be some Palooka style mindless droning without any explanation as to why my opinion was formed and what supports/influences it. 

I've written plenty on why I don't like Williams as a prospect. It isn't just because I want to go against the narrative in him, and funnily enough the narrative around him has indeed shifted over the season from being "God tier". 

[ronjon1990]

5 hours ago, Rich7sena said:

I haven't watched much of Maye, but Williams is supremely talented. He reminds me of a taller Kyler Murray in the sense that the game comes so easy to them that they don't have to be refined to produce.

I think we should graduate from the mindset that if a player does not have a ton of collegiate success, they should not be considered blue-chip prospects. We have seen too many guys succeed in the NFL with marginal college success for that to be a serious factor. I'm saying that's what you're saying, but it feels like an argument we are going to hear around these guys when the draft process heats up.

It's not a matter of college success. Plenty of QBs didn't have it- Rodgers was only successful one year, Goff never was, etc. 

Heck, I've spent the last like 10 years arguing for the QB from smaller programs you can look at despite the lack of success- Josh Allen being a good one. 

With Williams, I don't think he's all that talented on the field. He's good, not great. He's ok at playing outside of structure, not great. But, good not great is fine for a rookie given the draft is just a crapshoot. And if that's where it stayed with Williams, I'd be OK with him. 

But....that's far from.the only criticism of Caleb Williams. The draft coverage hasn't really started yet, and right now the Caleb Cornermen overcompensate and largely outright reject any criticism of William by equating minor criticisms with saying he's a surefire bust. The kids would call it going from 0 to 100. Now, I've gone on record as saying I think that guy busts hard- but it's got little to do with on-field stuff. 

For the most part I'm with you. Wins and losses simply don't tell the whole story. Now, in regard to Williams, the wins and losses aren't really even a concern for me. Even if USC were undefeated right now (no other statistical changes), I'd have my reservations as he just hasn't played up to the level he was hyped to. People point to the D, but the D wasn't what led to USC only scoring 20 yesterday lol. That's why wins/losses don't matter, a perfect example really. USC lost and Williams looked mid. Had USC won 20-19, should Williams get all the glory for putting up 20 against UCLA's D just because USC won? 

[Dessie]

Wrong thread.…

Edited November 19, 2023 by Dessie

[NYRaider]

2 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

Interesting. 
I disagree, the difference between bottom tier teams and upper is pretty noticeable imo. 
for a guy who cries over us not drafting Carter, it seems weird for you to now be saying talent level between teams is pretty equal. 
 

we’ve been near bottom talent level for most of the last what 20 years? We finally out of the bottom though last 4 or 5 years. But the top tiered teams are clearly better than us, and have much higher end talent along with better depth.

The gap between college teams is significantly higher then it is in the NFL, lol

[Rich7sena]

2 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

With Williams, I don't think he's all that talented on the field. He's good, not great. He's ok at playing outside of structure, not great. But, good not great is fine for a rookie given the draft is just a crapshoot. And if that's where it stayed with Williams, I'd be OK with him. 

The bolded is where your opinion departs from mine and consensus. I think he's as talented a QB prospect as I have ever seen.

[BackinBlack]

16 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

The gap between college teams is significantly higher then it is in the NFL, lol

sure... but youre not arguing USC is a bottom tiered college team are you? 
they def not the best, but i just assumed youre not arguing they are D2 or something..

never know though with you sometimes.