Grade RIVALS draft picks

[BetterCallSaul]

On 5/2/2023 at 9:20 PM, Ozzy said:

and Andre Carter II has out of this world upside

Why? Because he’s tall? He is atrocious. Got destroyed by everyone in drills, isn’t explosive, and just doesn’t look like he knows how to play. Just looking at physical tools, even if he added 20 pounds of pure muscle & perfected his technique, he lacks speed. 

[Forge]

15 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Why? Because he’s tall? He is atrocious. Got destroyed by everyone in drills, isn’t explosive, and just doesn’t look like he knows how to play. Just looking at physical tools, even if he added 20 pounds of pure muscle & perfected his technique, he lacks speed. 

Agreed. He's the longest of long term projects. I feel like you're talking multiple years of practice squad + body refinement. The league will likely not have the patience for it. I doubt that he's ever a thing. 

[scar988]

1 hour ago, Forge said:

Agreed. He's the longest of long term projects. I feel like you're talking multiple years of practice squad + body refinement. The league will likely not have the patience for it. I doubt that he's ever a thing. 

He's only 21. But he would be better off at this point serving his 2-3 years in the Army and then trying out as a UDFA. Spending his time in the army bulking up. Fitness standards at the academies are much harsher than they are in the actual army as you age.

[hburn]

2 minutes ago, scar988 said:

He's only 21. But he would be better off at this point serving his 2-3 years in the Army and then trying out as a UDFA. Spending his time in the army bulking up. Fitness standards at the academies are much harsher than they are in the actual army as you age.

West Point just uses the standard army height/weight and taping standards. He’ll have a much better time using a pro staff’s nutrition coach than the army

[Ozzy]

2 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Why? Because he’s tall? He is atrocious. Got destroyed by everyone in drills, isn’t explosive, and just doesn’t look like he knows how to play. Just looking at physical tools, even if he added 20 pounds of pure muscle & perfected his technique, he lacks speed. 

 

 

 

So a dude 6-6 1/2 256 who played for four different high schools and a prep school in three different stats, then goes through four years at the Army where they are not exactly focused on making him a great football player or working all that much on his long term football physique.  To pretend he has no upside is just absurd, or to pretend his coaching, weight room training or long term physical training is the same at West Point as it is as Alabama, come on...   Sure he got pushed around at times during the senior bowl but he also made some great plays and showed more than enough athletic ability at that frame, put on some muscle and improved some technique and dude could be totally legit.   Already showed better coverage skills than a majority of 3/4 OLBs coming out of college.  Teams are foolish to think he just sucks, when he has not had near the prep work or coaching most of the guys have had.  You think Andre Carter II left West Point in January and trained with a professional team paid to make him run a fast 40 or workout well in the field workout?  No he did not, where basically everyone else that declared for the draft probably did that to some degree.  

Put him with pro coaching and training, there is zero chance he does not greatly improve in almost everything he does.

 

 

Doesn't know how to play?  Army last had a player drafted in 2008 in the 7th round, then another one in 1997 in the 7th round and last time they had a player drafted before the 7th was 1947 with a 1st round pick 2nd overall.  So yeah he might not know how to play, is that his fault?  No, he went to a school not focused on football what so ever, yeah he might not be as polished as some of the other guys.  To say he did not show talent why at Army and has potential if put in the right situation to me is just stupid.  

[BetterCallSaul]

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 

 

 

So a dude 6-6 1/2 256 who played for four different high schools and a prep school in three different stats, then goes through four years at the Army where they are not exactly focused on making him a great football player or working all that much on his long term football physique.

None of this is relevant. 

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

To pretend he has no upside is just absurd, or to pretend his coaching, weight room training or long term physical training is the same at West Point as it is as Alabama, come on... 

Nobody said it was.

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

 Sure he got pushed around at times during the senior bowl but he also made some great plays and showed more than enough athletic ability at that frame, put on some muscle and improved some technique and dude could be totally legit.

He got demolished by pretty much everyone. Like…really bad reps over and over again. 

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Already showed better coverage skills than a majority of 3/4 OLBs coming out of college.  Teams are foolish to think he just sucks, when he has not had near the prep work or coaching most of the guys have had.  You think Andre Carter II left West Point in January and trained with a professional team paid to make him run a fast 40 or workout well in the field workout?  No he did not, where basically everyone else that declared for the draft probably did that to some degree.  

I don’t even know what he ran to be honest—he looks clunky on tape when he doesn’t win with a big swim.

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Put him with pro coaching and training, there is zero chance he does not greatly improve in almost everything he does.

Sure he will. But not enough that I think he will make an impact. 

12 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

Doesn't know how to play?  Army last had a player drafted in 2008 in the 7th round, then another one in 1997 in the 7th round and last time they had a player drafted before the 7th was 1947 with a 1st round pick 2nd overall.  So yeah he might not know how to play, is that his fault?  No, he went to a school not focused on football what so ever, yeah he might not be as polished as some of the other guys.  To say he did not show talent why at Army and has potential if put in the right situation to me is just stupid.  

I could care less where he came from or why he might not be developed—he just isn’t. And that has nothing to do with bis stiffness. He’s just not a great athlete, nor does he have play strength. There’s a reason he was undrafted—this isn’t some made up hot take.

 

He doesn’t have ZERO potential. But “out of this world” potential? Definitely not. Guess we will see

[Ozzy]

10 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

None of this is relevant. 

Nobody said it was.

He got demolished by pretty much everyone. Like…really bad reps over and over again. 

I don’t even know what he ran to be honest—he looks clunky on tape when he doesn’t win with a big swim.

Sure he will. But not enough that I think he will make an impact. 

I could care less where he came from or why he might not be developed—he just isn’t. And that has nothing to do with bis stiffness. He’s just not a great athlete, nor does he have play strength. There’s a reason he was undrafted—this isn’t some made up hot take.

 

He doesn’t have ZERO potential. But “out of this world” potential? Definitely not. Guess we will see

So then you project nothing, because last May-August more than one person had him as a potential 1st round pick and put on the tape from that year who would not have thought that, he was that good as a RS JR.  Even last year he had moments, sure people maybe crossed him out when he got knocked down a few times at the Senior bowl but again to totally disregard where he is coming from is flat out stupid.  

 

Where do you think that "play strength" comes from, magic?  They are just born that way?  No sorry they are not.  And Andre Carter II has probably more character and determination than a vast majority of all the other prospects.  West Point is not exactly easy and is one of the hardest schools to get into in the US, not to mention the commitment involved in going there.  

 

To write him off for a bad week at the Senior bowl playing against guys who actually for the most part got basically professional level weight training and coaching the last four-five maybe even six years....yeah no.

[BetterCallSaul]

5 minutes ago, Ozzy said:

To write him off for a bad week at the Senior bowl playing against guys who actually for the most part got basically professional level weight training and coaching the last four-five maybe even six years....yeah no.

Well it’s pretty clear 32 teams felt comfortable writing him off. Whatever. We’ll see. 

[Ozzy]

12 minutes ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Well it’s pretty clear 32 teams felt comfortable writing him off. Whatever. We’ll see. 

I just feel it is a disservice to him, no way if he played at Alabama and had a JR year like he did, even with a down SR year, no way he would have went undrafted.  Teams need to realize where he is coming from, and again Army has basically no high level football training unlike basically every other school where football is King and the main money maker for the University and that is all that really matters.  

The guy is raw but in no way is his body unable to improve and get stronger much less his technique unable to improve and get better.  

 

I recall Villanueva having a quote, talking about yeah his 40 time is not that great before the draft but his 5 mile time is pretty solid, they are built to perform on the battle field not on the football field.  

 

Minnesota has developed 3/4 OLBs pretty well, especially with the addition of Mike Smith from Green Bay, Patrick Jones played great last year and really improved off his rookie year and Wonnum transitioned well also.  Z. Smith probably will not be around but Danielle Hunter is one of the best athletes in the NFL in terms of DE or 3/4 OLB and can pass on more than a few tips in terms of working out and in terms of overall football performance.  Also have Marcus Davenport who was also pretty damn raw in college and super thin early in college, but even UTSA has probably a better football training staff than Army.

 

But sure maybe Andre Carter II is the void of any athletic improvement but I do not believe that at all.  Dude could really take off if he is committed to it.  

[NudeTayne]

@Ozzy making good points, as well as @BetterCallSaul. I'm curious how the career of Andre Carter plays out.

[BetterCallSaul]

4 hours ago, NudeTayne said:

@Ozzy making good points, as well as @BetterCallSaul. I'm curious how the career of Andre Carter plays out.

I think @Ozzy is right that he COULD be good. I just feel that he is so far away from that possibility that it’d be a miracle. He wasn’t even the best UDFA DE, in my opinion. 

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, BetterCallSaul said:

I think @Ozzy is right that he COULD be good. I just feel that he is so far away from that possibility that it’d be a miracle. He wasn’t even the best UDFA DE, in my opinion. 

Sure 3/4 OLB types or DE types there were more than a few decent ones in this draft as UDFAs.  Andre Carter II, Garrett Nelson, Habakkuk Baldonado, Ali Gaye, Brenton Cox Jr and Lonnie Phelps I would say in that order.   Cox would have been higher but the character issues, still to me Carter no question has more potential and upside than anyone on that list considering his background and where he played football in college.   

 

Baldonado I was super high on coming into the year as well considering how raw he was and new to the sport he was but he just did not play great this past year which hurt him in the draft big time.  He played only one year of high school football in the US, other three were played in Italy.  But unlike Carter, Baldonado had top of the line football training and coaching at Pitt, so maybe he has got what he could out of himself athletically but still feel he has some upside and potential.  Carter II is far more raw because again at West Point he is trained to be Artillery Officer, not an elite football player.

[incognito_man]

7 hours ago, BetterCallSaul said:

I think @Ozzy is right that he COULD be good. I just feel that he is so far away from that possibility that it’d be a miracle. He wasn’t even the best UDFA DE, in my opinion. 

Does that honor go to GBs Brenton Cox?

[BetterCallSaul]

Just now, incognito_man said:

Does that honor go to GBs Brenton Cox?

I love Isaiah Land. Probably more than I should to be fair. I think Lonnie Phelps has some awesome traits too. Cox is very toolsy too, but I feel like he’s a trash ball human from what I hear. Also was a big Diabate fan. I feel like they qualify as LBs for the most part, but I had them with the edges on my board. Land had a 4th round grade from me. I know he’s crazy skinny, but he has fantastic bend and speed. Love his tools as an immediate DPR.