2023 Around the League

[Madmike90]

1 minute ago, AZBearsFan said:

If we ride with Fields for 2024 and trade down and Fields flames out we’ll have, at minimum, two 1sts and 2 2nds (including CAR’s) in 2025 with which to move up to get whatever QB we might want in next year’s draft if so inclined without compromising any future drafts. If Poles is not sold on Williams/Maye but also not sold on Fields  the punt on Williams/Maye doesn’t have to be the full blown tie to Fields most think it is. 

Everyone is so quick to want to drop a rookie QB into a bad situation instead of making things as easy as possible should a rookie need to start in 2025...if we can add some real talent on offence this year and Fields doesn't play well then you have a definitive answer on not only him but Flus as an HC and you can drop an offensive minded HC and his hand picked rookie QB into a team with talent all over the place for 2025...

That thinking is one of the top 3 reasons I think keeping Fields and trading out of #1 just makes so much sense...that along with how Fields is viewed by the players around him and the fact that he has stayed so professional and continued to be an excellent leader through being questioned time and time again even though he has had next to no help at times. 

[dll2000]

59 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Everyone is so quick to want to drop a rookie QB into a bad situation instead of making things as easy as possible should a rookie need to start in 2025...if we can add some real talent on offence this year and Fields doesn't play well then you have a definitive answer on not only him but Flus as an HC and you can drop an offensive minded HC and his hand picked rookie QB into a team with talent all over the place for 2025...

That thinking is one of the top 3 reasons I think keeping Fields and trading out of #1 just makes so much sense...that along with how Fields is viewed by the players around him and the fact that he has stayed so professional and continued to be an excellent leader through being questioned time and time again even though he has had next to no help at times. 

But the situation isn't that bad.  4 of 5 OL are good.   The number 1 WR is good.  The number 1 TE is good. 

The defense is good.

All the good players are young or in prime.

Add in a rookie QB salary for another 4 years and you can use that money for FAs or keeping vets you want.

It is one of best possible situations for a QB drafted 1 overall who usually goes into a train wreck situation.

A trade of Fields probably yields a 2nd rounder to add to pot.

The WR, TE and OT draft class is said to be very good.  

If the Caleb or Maye is good now is the time to move.  If they aren't, well the decision is different.  

[Madmike90]

8 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

But the situation isn't that bad.  4 of 5 OL are good.   The number 1 WR is good.  The number 1 TE is good. 

The defense is good.

All the good players are young or in prime.

Add in a rookie QB salary for another 4 years and you can use that money for FAs or keeping vets you want.

It is one of best possible situations for a QB drafted 1 overall who usually goes into a train wreck situation.

A trade of Fields probably yields a 2nd rounder to add to pot.

The WR, TE and OT draft class is said to be very good.  

If the Caleb or Maye is good now is the time to move.  If they aren't, well the decision is different.  

3 of the 5 OL are good...Davis has been very hit and miss this year and no one can rely on Teven not to get hurt as good as he is when he is in there.

Number 1 WR is good...numbers 2 is bad...number 3 doesn't exist.

Number 1 TE is good...number 2 TE does nothing...#3 TE is a 40 year old OT at this point.

RB is a need that no one is speaking about...Herbert is a quality ball carrier...can't pass pro or catch well enough to be a featured part of the passing game.

You are projecting that players would want to come here and play with a rookie QB who has shown a lack of leadership after replacing the guy who lots of vets on the team have publicly came out and supported...players talk and we don't have so much cap space that we can just blow other people out the water.

This isn't a great situation to land a rookie...especially one who doesn't seem to have elite leadership qualities...far more to playing QB than just being able to throw the ball...if that's all it was Cutler would be a HoFer.

[StLunatic88]

41 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

a rookie QB who has shown a lack of leadership after replacing the guy who lots of vets on the team have publicly came out and supported...

This is something I have been thinking about a lot lately. The fact that Fields is so revered in this locker room doesn’t on its own entitle him to another year. But the reaction (maybe not a full on backlash) from going to a guy they all respect and want to play with, to some rookie who’s already got some questions in that department (in reality all rookies do when walking into a veteran locker room) could be a rough mix when we have been moving in the right direction 

[dll2000]

2 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

3 of the 5 OL are good...Davis has been very hit and miss this year and no one can rely on Teven not to get hurt as good as he is when he is in there.

Number 1 WR is good...numbers 2 is bad...number 3 doesn't exist.

Number 1 TE is good...number 2 TE does nothing...#3 TE is a 40 year old OT at this point.

RB is a need that no one is speaking about...Herbert is a quality ball carrier...can't pass pro or catch well enough to be a featured part of the passing game.

You are projecting that players would want to come here and play with a rookie QB who has shown a lack of leadership after replacing the guy who lots of vets on the team have publicly came out and supported...players talk and we don't have so much cap space that we can just blow other people out the water.

This isn't a great situation to land a rookie...especially one who doesn't seem to have elite leadership qualities...far more to playing QB than just being able to throw the ball...if that's all it was Cutler would be a HoFer.

 

I have never seen you so negative on our players.

I'll say again.  It's about as good as it gets for a team with first overall pick.   

You weren't worst team to start with so you didn't earn the first pick.

You aren't trading up for the pick.  So all the rest of picks stay and go toward improving the team. 

 People put too much of a microscope on Jenkins injuries.  He played more than a lot of guys on OL.   The back stuff has not been a thing of late which is the good news.   He is one of best Gs in league.  

  Davis will be better now that coaches presumably know how to deal with his personality and he is past his off field issue this offseason.  

We can draft a WR.  TE draft is good too.   Probably some decent FA TEs as well.

RB is fine.  They are a little banged up at moment.   Roschon will get much better and had plenty of flashes this year.  He barely played in college.  They are a dime a dozen and their success is mostly Oline dependent.  Draft one every year in 4th or 5th and one will emerge.  Tons of FAs of quality as well.   

Almost nobody refuses to play for a team.  They go to highest bidder.   Rookie contract advantages are not insignificant.   It allows a team to spend a lot more on other positions for 3 years.  

Even if you assume no additional offensive talent over this year.  The passing production bar Fields has set is low.  His offensive production can be replaced by a decent rookie.   

Yes if we trade down and we may add another great first round talent, perhaps an additional second rounder and maybe a first next year.  Let's assume one is a great offensive player.  He can watch Justin hold the ball and run around too. 

If Justin stays he has to improve in pocket.  He has to pull the trigger and on time.  He has not fumble and throw picks in 4th quarter.  And you just don't know that is going to happen.

You have to throw the ball efficiently to win.  You have to run the play as designed - most of time - or they don't work.  

All rookies are a gamble.  But Justin is a known.  And what he has shown has just not been good enough to date. 

I would like him to have another year, but if we have the top pick and top prospect is good - take him.

 

[Epyon]

I'd throw in the offensive line isn't anywhere near as bad as it looks.....

JF1 causes a TON of the pressures he takes on his own.  Now I'll be fair and point out that might not change a ton with Caleb, since he also has a very high time to throw that is a cause for concern....

BUT.... Fields has slow footwork on his dropbacks. That's been measured. His 5 step drop takes a full second longer than Bagent was taking on his 5 step drop.... His throwing motion is also slow. Finally, there's countless examples where he just doesn't trust his eyes or arm and just throw the ball, or where he doesn't anticipate the receiver's break and just throw the damn ball.

Watching Caleb's tape, I'm just not seeing anywhere near those kinds of major flaws with that kind of regularity.

This isn't a super high bar too hurdle over right now, but Caleb is ALREADY a better NFL passer than Fields, and it's not even close.

[beardown3231]

1 hour ago, dll2000 said:

 

I have never seen you so negative on our players.

I'll say again.  It's about as good as it gets for a team with first overall pick.   

You weren't worst team to start with so you didn't earn the first pick.

You aren't trading up for the pick.  So all the rest of picks stay and go toward improving the team. 

 People put too much of a microscope on Jenkins injuries.  He played more than a lot of guys on OL.   The back stuff has not been a thing of late which is the good news.   He is one of best Gs in league.  

  Davis will be better now that coaches presumably know how to deal with his personality and he is past his off field issue this offseason.  

We can draft a WR.  TE draft is good too.   Probably some decent FA TEs as well.

RB is fine.  They are a little banged up at moment.   Roschon will get much better and had plenty of flashes this year.  He barely played in college.  They are a dime a dozen and their success is mostly Oline dependent.  Draft one every year in 4th or 5th and one will emerge.  Tons of FAs of quality as well.   

Almost nobody refuses to play for a team.  They go to highest bidder.   Rookie contract advantages are not insignificant.   It allows a team to spend a lot more on other positions for 3 years.  

Even if you assume no additional offensive talent over this year.  The passing production bar Fields has set is low.  His offensive production can be replaced by a decent rookie.   

Yes if we trade down and we may add another great first round talent, perhaps an additional second rounder and maybe a first next year.  Let's assume one is a great offensive player.  He can watch Justin hold the ball and run around too. 

If Justin stays he has to improve in pocket.  He has to pull the trigger and on time.  He has not fumble and throw picks in 4th quarter.  And you just don't know that is going to happen.

You have to throw the ball efficiently to win.  You have to run the play as designed - most of time - or they don't work.  

All rookies are a gamble.  But Justin is a known.  And what he has shown has just not been good enough to date. 

I would like him to have another year, but if we have the top pick and top prospect is good - take him.

 

The same guy you're replying to was super high on the current roster the day they traded for Moore. Now? All of those guys stink and they need more. It's funny how having actual good players now makes us realize how mediocre the "good" ones from really poor years truly were & still are

Edited December 29, 2023 by beardown3231

[chisoxguy7]

1 hour ago, beardown3231 said:

It's funny how having actual good players now makes us realize how mediocre the "good" ones from really poor years truly were & still are

You have to take into account that these offseason reactions are nothing more than projections and assumptions. Nobody expected Mooney to be as bad as he has been. That's impossible to forecast.

I don't think you can really fault anyone for having a different opinion now than they did before. We have more information now, and it's not like anybody is expected to hold the same opinion no matter what.

[beardown3231]

9 minutes ago, chisoxguy7 said:

You have to take into account that these offseason reactions are nothing more than projections and assumptions. Nobody expected Mooney to be as bad as he has been. That's impossible to forecast.

I don't think you can really fault anyone for having a different opinion now than they did before. We have more information now, and it's not like anybody is expected to hold the same opinion no matter what.

Has Mooney really been bad? The body language sucks, but I don't recall any brutal drops or anything. Is it possible he's frustrated that he's never getting the ball?

Of course it was based on projections, but, why? Before getting hurt last year Mooney was averaging like 3 catches a game iirc

One post in the trade thread talked about how the Moore acquisition would really benefit Velus Jones 😅

Edited December 29, 2023 by beardown3231

[Madmike90]

6 hours ago, dll2000 said:

 

I have never seen you so negative on our players.

It’s not being negative…it’s simply being honest…outside of DJ & Kmet who have obviously been great this year who else at WR or TE is a legit NFL starter on a good team? Mooney has regressed massively and been a major disappointment considering the burden of being the #1 option in the passing game has been lifted…as a #3 option he should have thrived and it just hasn’t happened…you could make an argument in a different scheme with a different QB maybe he finds some of his old pre injury form but he just physically doesn’t seem the same player and when a smaller receiver like him loses that explosiveness it is pretty much done…outside of that who starts on a good team? Tonyan? Scott? Velus? None of these guys are legit starting calibre players but we somehow expect Fields to make them great…you drop a rookie in there with that talent and they have the same problems.

[Madmike90]

4 hours ago, chisoxguy7 said:

You have to take into account that these offseason reactions are nothing more than projections and assumptions. Nobody expected Mooney to be as bad as he has been. That's impossible to forecast.

I don't think you can really fault anyone for having a different opinion now than they did before. We have more information now, and it's not like anybody is expected to hold the same opinion no matter what.

Careful there is almost too much logic in this post for some people around here to handle 😂

[Madmike90]

You have to laugh at the fact Cleveland spent $230 million dollars on Watson when all they really needed to do was get Joe Flacco off his couch 😂

[chisoxguy7]

16 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Tonyan? Scott? Velus? None of these guys are legit starting calibre players but we somehow expect Fields to make them great…

Very well said--nobody is calling for Mahomes' head because he couldn't turn Kadarius Toney and Skyy Moore into competent receivers. Rice looks like he may be something.

[beardown3231]

6 hours ago, chisoxguy7 said:

Very well said--nobody is calling for Mahomes' head because he couldn't turn Kadarius Toney and Skyy Moore into competent receivers. Rice looks like he may be something.

Nobody is calling for Mahomes' head because he's 28 and has won 2 Super Bowl MVP's

[dll2000]

7 hours ago, chisoxguy7 said:

Very well said--nobody is calling for Mahomes' head because he couldn't turn Kadarius Toney and Skyy Moore into competent receivers. Rice looks like he may be something.

I am "calling for Fields head" because there is a likely better option.

If choice was between Fields and say Flacco (who just outplayed him) I am taking Fields.  Choice between Fields and a lot of guys, I take Fields.  

But combination of potential and rookie contract and Fields flaws makes my decision.

As far as logic (which Madmike brought up and I don't know if it was directed partially at me)  - I think I always reason out my opinions.  Right or wrong.  

I would add I think it is possible to have logical reasons for keeping Fields - potential to improve, leadership, toughness, intelligence, fantastic tools, amazing escapability and running ability and adding in all capital that comes with trading number 1 pick.

and

 logic for jettisoning Fields - he holds ball too long, turns ball over, passes on open receivers, has slow mechanics in drop and delivery and you have very possibly number 1 pick in draft with two highly thought of prospects available and you have a reset of rookie contract to year 1.

I just think the latter is the stronger argument at this time.

If Fields played better this year I would prefer the former argument, which I have repeatedly stated was my preferred outcome since way back.  It just didn't work out that way.