Justin Fields

[chisoxguy7]

Here's how I see it: it all starts with Getsy has to go. It has to start there before you decide how much additional change you want to make. If you believe Justin is going to be able to pick up another system and be elevated, then do that and trade down from #1.

If you don't believe in Justin, and you're going to take a QB at 1, it would be really foolish (and very aptly Bears) to not fire the entire coaching staff at that point. I don't want to give Eberflus the opportunity to screw up a new QB, and I don't want to repeat the cycle that the Bears love. Fox -> Trubisky -> Nagy, Nagy -> Fields -> Eberflus, etc.

And finally, if you're canning the coaching staff, Warren must decide if Poles stays or goes. I'm of the opinion that Poles has demonstrated enough competence to be trusted with another HC pick. He has shown gumption on the trade market, hitting on Sweat and missing on Claypool. His FA moves, while some would prefer we target more top FAs, my main take away is that he hasn't made any moves that have crippled us moving forward. I think that's important with FA, though I would prefer if we would acknowledge FA misses sooner and develop a contingency plan. Lucas Patrick should never have been anywhere near the starting lineup this year. He should be your OL8 or 9.

Gun to my head, I think Getsy goes, Flus and Poles survive, we bring in a new OC and make him AHC, and they try to help Fields grow. Trade down from #1.

I'll preface the following by saying I'm not well versed in schemes whatsoever, so I have no clue if any of these guys are a good fit for what we want to do with Justin.

I'm looking into the Eberflus coaching tree, he has some overlap with Wes Phillips who is currently OC in MIN. Can we poach him if we make him AHC? 

There's also Bill Callahan, who is coaching OL in CLE right now but was the OC for a few years while Eberflus was in DAL.

He also worked with Scott Linehan, who has been out of the league since 2019.

Marcus Brady overlapped with him in IND and has spent this season with the Eagles as a Senior Offensive Assistant. He has previous OC experience both with the Colts and in the CFL.

Jason Michael worked as an OC with the Titans in 2014 and 2015 and has also coached QBs and TEs.

We all are familiar with Mike Groh, who was OC with the Eagles in 2018 and 2019 and is now with the Giants coaching WRs.

Press Taylor is currently OC for the Jags, same as with Wes Phillips, can we poach him if we make him AHC?

 

I only went back as far as Eberflus' first year in Cleveland, which was 2009-2010. I'd be curious if any of you who are smarter than me could dig through these connections any further and unearth anyone else who may be willing to come work for Flus, and more than that, would be a good fit for Justin.

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by chisoxguy7

[Madmike90]

15 minutes ago, chisoxguy7 said:

Here's how I see it: it all starts with Getsy has to go. It has to start there before you decide how much additional change you want to make. If you believe Justin is going to be able to pick up another system and be elevated, then do that and trade down from #1.

If you don't believe in Justin, and you're going to take a QB at 1, it would be really foolish (and very aptly Bears) to not fire the entire coaching staff at that point. I don't want to give Eberflus the opportunity to screw up a new QB, and I don't want to repeat the cycle that the Bears love. Fox -> Trubisky -> Nagy, Nagy -> Fields -> Eberflus, etc.

And finally, if you're canning the coaching staff, Warren must decide if Poles stays or goes. I'm of the opinion that Poles has demonstrated enough competence to be trusted with another HC pick. He has shown gumption on the trade market, hitting on Sweat and missing on Claypool. His FA moves, while some would prefer we target more top FAs, my main take away is that he hasn't made any moves that have crippled us moving forward. I think that's important with FA, though I would prefer if we would acknowledge FA misses sooner and develop a contingency plan. Lucas Patrick should never have been anywhere near the starting lineup this year. He should be your OL8 or 9.

Gun to my head, I think Getsy goes, Flus and Poles survive, we bring in a new OC and make him AHC, and they try to help Fields grow. Trade down from #1.

I'll preface the following by saying I'm not well versed in schemes whatsoever, so I have no clue if any of these guys are a good fit for what we want to do with Justin.

I'm looking into the Eberflus coaching tree, he has some overlap with Wes Phillips who is currently OC in MIN. Can we poach him if we make him AHC? 

There's also Bill Callahan, who is coaching OL in CLE right now but was the OC for a few years while Eberflus was in DAL.

He also worked with Scott Linehan, who has been out of the league since 2019.

Marcus Brady overlapped with him in IND and has spent this season with the Eagles as a Senior Offensive Assistant. He has previous OC experience both with the Colts and in the CFL.

Jason Michael worked as an OC with the Titans in 2014 and 2015 and has also coached QBs and TEs.

We all are familiar with Mike Groh, who was OC with the Eagles in 2018 and 2019 and is now with the Giants coaching WRs.

Press Taylor is currently OC for the Jags, same as with Wes Phillips, can we poach him if we make him AHC?

 

I only went back as far as Eberflus' first year in Cleveland, which was 2009-2010. I'd be curious if any of you who are smarter than me could dig through these connections any further and unearth anyone else who may be willing to come work for Flus, and more than that, would be a good fit for Justin.

 

The most interest guy from that overlap is Kellen Moore...Moore was a player when Flus was coaching in Dallas...Moore is also known to be really close to Linehan...with what is going on in LA he will more than likely be out there if we wanted to go down that road.

[chisoxguy7]

3 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

The most interest guy from that overlap is Kellen Moore...Moore was a player when Flus was coaching in Dallas...Moore is also known to be really close to Linehan...with what is going on in LA he will more than likely be out there if we wanted to go down that road.

I wouldn't at all mind bringing in both. Moore as OC, Linehan as Senior Offensive Assistant.

[Pool]

47 minutes ago, chisoxguy7 said:

 

Gun to my head, I think Getsy goes, Flus and Poles survive, we bring in a new OC and make him AHC, and they try to help Fields grow. Trade down from #1.

 

 

This is exactly what I think will happen too. I think it comes down to a few things though. One being that we will get a much larger return trading the #1 pick than we would for trading Justin Fields, and the other being that you can justify keeping Fields. If we pass on Williams, draft MHJ and get another 1st or a DJ Moore level prospect you can live with that even if Williams becomes an all pro. You can rationalize it and understand the thought process. You give up Fields for a second round pick and he goes on to become an all pro it'd be almost unforgivable. Ultimately I think this is what the choice will come down to. Which scenarios can the Bears org and their fans stomach the most. 

 

[beardown3231]

1 hour ago, chisoxguy7 said:

Here's how I see it: it all starts with Getsy has to go. It has to start there before you decide how much additional change you want to make. If you believe Justin is going to be able to pick up another system and be elevated, then do that and trade down from #1.

If you don't believe in Justin, and you're going to take a QB at 1, it would be really foolish (and very aptly Bears) to not fire the entire coaching staff at that point. I don't want to give Eberflus the opportunity to screw up a new QB, and I don't want to repeat the cycle that the Bears love. Fox -> Trubisky -> Nagy, Nagy -> Fields -> Eberflus, etc.

And finally, if you're canning the coaching staff, Warren must decide if Poles stays or goes. I'm of the opinion that Poles has demonstrated enough competence to be trusted with another HC pick. He has shown gumption on the trade market, hitting on Sweat and missing on Claypool. His FA moves, while some would prefer we target more top FAs, my main take away is that he hasn't made any moves that have crippled us moving forward. I think that's important with FA, though I would prefer if we would acknowledge FA misses sooner and develop a contingency plan. Lucas Patrick should never have been anywhere near the starting lineup this year. He should be your OL8 or 9.

Gun to my head, I think Getsy goes, Flus and Poles survive, we bring in a new OC and make him AHC, and they try to help Fields grow. Trade down from #1.

I'll preface the following by saying I'm not well versed in schemes whatsoever, so I have no clue if any of these guys are a good fit for what we want to do with Justin.

I'm looking into the Eberflus coaching tree, he has some overlap with Wes Phillips who is currently OC in MIN. Can we poach him if we make him AHC? 

There's also Bill Callahan, who is coaching OL in CLE right now but was the OC for a few years while Eberflus was in DAL.

He also worked with Scott Linehan, who has been out of the league since 2019.

Marcus Brady overlapped with him in IND and has spent this season with the Eagles as a Senior Offensive Assistant. He has previous OC experience both with the Colts and in the CFL.

Jason Michael worked as an OC with the Titans in 2014 and 2015 and has also coached QBs and TEs.

We all are familiar with Mike Groh, who was OC with the Eagles in 2018 and 2019 and is now with the Giants coaching WRs.

Press Taylor is currently OC for the Jags, same as with Wes Phillips, can we poach him if we make him AHC?

 

I only went back as far as Eberflus' first year in Cleveland, which was 2009-2010. I'd be curious if any of you who are smarter than me could dig through these connections any further and unearth anyone else who may be willing to come work for Flus, and more than that, would be a good fit for Justin.

 

Callahan would be a sleeper HC candidate if they move on from Eberflus. Honestly I can see him getting a job somewhere in the league this offseason. Washington to pair with Daniels, Williams or Maye? NE to pair with a rookie? He isn't leaving to be AHC/OC here with Fields when he can stay & look even better in 2025 with Burrow in 2024

Edited December 19, 2023 by beardown3231

[chisoxguy7]

11 minutes ago, Pool said:

This is exactly what I think will happen too. I think it comes down to a few things though. One being that we will get a much larger return trading the #1 pick than we would for trading Justin Fields, and the other being that you can justify keeping Fields. If we pass on Williams, draft MHJ and get another 1st or a DJ Moore level prospect you can live with that even if Williams becomes an all pro. You can rationalize it and understand the thought process. You give up Fields for a second round pick and he goes on to become an all pro it'd be almost unforgivable. Ultimately I think this is what the choice will come down to. Which scenarios can the Bears org and their fans stomach the most. 

 

It also makes the most sense from the standpoint of maximizing resources. Say Justin returns a 2nd or 3rd--not that exciting overall. We keep Justin, trade down from 1, add two blue chippers and future resources. If Fields works out--it's a brilliant move. If Fields doesn't work out, you've added two blue chippers for whoever is next. Meanwhile, with Poles playing FA tactically and maximizing compensatory picks, even if Fields leaves for free in 2025, we could potentially get a 3rd or 4th for him anyways, in addition to having the haul from trading down from #1.

And in the scenario where Fields doesn't work out, you have added talent and reduced or eliminated the holes on the roster to make it easier to digest having to trade up for a QB if that's the route they go.

 

On the other hand, if we stay at 1 and trade Fields and STILL things look bad... we don't have a war chest to work with anymore. I think Poles will realize this.

[AZBearsFan]

12 hours ago, beardown3231 said:

This argument doesn't have to be so drastic. Overall, Fields' record is bad, but I don't think he is bad. I just don't think he's good enough. If he needs a bunch of stars around him, he isn't the guy, imo.

That’s fair enough, and there’s certainly support for taking that position. But, it also touches on the balance between two very different but very related questions:

”Does he need too much around him to be successful?”

”How much around him is enough for a reasonable expectation that he’s not hindered by what’s around him?”

The latter question is what keeps me wanting to see more to know more before deciding what Fields is or is not.

Set aside the play calling for a minute since everyone agrees it’s at best underwhelming and at its worst downright abysmal. Right now Fields has got DJ and what else at WR? Mooney has strongly regressed each of the past 2 seasons. Claypool was so bad he got traded away for almost nothing and has since played 34 offensive snaps in 6 games in Miami. Tyler Scott is a mid round rookie who looks like one. Velus has been a stone hands gadget player on his best day. EQ is basically a blocking TE who lines up out wide. Trent Taylor has 8 catches since 2020, and none this year. Last year he had Dante Pettis in a starting role who isn’t even on a roster in 2023.

Is one star WR and a bunch of spare parts “enough”? That’s in the eye of the beholder, but there’s a lot of space IMO between “He needs several stars at receiver to succeed” and “He should have a group of capable professionals at WR.” I think the latter is a reasonable expectation, and we still haven’t seen the latter for him in 3 years. I’m willing to be more patient with him because of that, but I was willing to be more patient than most with Cutler too. Others aren’t, and weren’t. I don’t begrudge those of you who are more ready to move on than me - I get it, even if we don’t share the same viewpoint. Fields been set up to fail in a lot of ways since arriving here, but that doesn’t mean he gets a total pass (and certainly not an indefinite one) for his failures thus far. 

Edited December 19, 2023 by AZBearsFan

[AZBearsFan]

13 hours ago, Madmike90 said:

 

He might be if you play a bit better 😂

The Mooney comment carries more weight for me than the Moore comment.

Moore is having his best season with the best QB he’s ever played with by far, and he’s going to be a Bear next year and almost certainly for years beyond outside of some unforeseen developments. Of course he’s going to back his guy.

Mooney, on the other hand, has taken significant steps back individually each of the past two seasons, is now a distant second fiddle amongst our WR hierarchy, and is more likely than not playing in his final games as a Bear over the next few weeks. If anything, he could argue that Fields being what he is has hurt Mooney’s own future to the tune of millions of dollars the past 15 months. He has zero reason to blow smoke up anyone’s *** about what Fields is or is not, and yet here he is extolling very matter of fact praise upon his quarterback.

I wonder if comments like these aren’t as much players’ way of commenting on play calling without directly calling Getsy out as anything else. 

[chisoxguy7]

I do believe that outside of Moore and to a much lesser extent Kmet, Fields is having a hard time trusting these receivers in this scheme. I think Justin does have what it takes but we haven’t done enough for him. At the same time, it’s really hard to accurately evaluate when Getsy is always doing Getsy things. 
 

I think if we had someone at #2 WR who could provide 800-900 yards a season, with Mooney as a #3 with some actual pros behind him who can chip in a couple hundred each, in a real NFL offensive scheme, we aren’t having a conversation about Justin. 
 

I don’t think this rises to the bar of “Justin needs too much to be good”, either. Plenty of teams around the league are producing these numbers. When was the last time the Bears did? Without looking I can tell you it has been a very long time, if it’s ever even happened. Best guess would be Bmarsh and Alshon.

[Epyon]

32 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

That’s fair enough, and there’s certainly support for taking that position. But, it also touches on the balance between two very different but very related questions:

”Does he need too much around him to be successful?”

”How much around him is enough for a reasonable expectation that he’s not hindered by what’s around him?”

The latter question is what keeps me wanting to see more to know more before deciding what Fields is or is not.

Set aside the play calling for a minute since everyone agrees it’s at best underwhelming and at its worst downright abysmal. Right now Fields has got DJ and what else at WR? Mooney has strongly regressed each of the past 2 seasons. Claypool was so bad he got traded away for almost nothing and has since played 34 offensive snaps in 6 games in Miami. Tyler Scott is a mid round rookie who looks like one. Velus has been a stone hands gadget player on his best day. EQ is basically a blocking TE who lines up out wide. Trent Taylor has 8 catches since 2020, and none this year. Last year he had Dante Pettis in a starting role who isn’t even on a roster in 2023.

Is one star WR and a bunch of spare parts “enough”? That’s in the eye of the beholder, but there’s a lot of space IMO between “He needs several stars at receiver to succeed” and “He should have a group of capable professionals at WR.” I think the latter is a reasonable expectation, and we still haven’t seen the latter for him in 3 years. I’m willing to be more patient with him because of that, but I was willing to be more patient than most with Cutler too. Others aren’t, and weren’t. I don’t begrudge those of you who are more ready to move on than me - I get it, even if we don’t share the same viewpoint. Fields been set up to fail in a lot of ways since arriving here, but that doesn’t mean he gets a total pass (and certainly not an indefinite one) for his failures thus far. 

One could argue this even being a question is the single largest indictment against the current staff (including Poles)..... We had literally one damn job this season: Figure out if Fields is the guy....  The fanbase is completely divided because there really isn't a clear cut consensus answer to that question, specifically because the staff went out of their way to try and revamp the entire defense, with only 2 additions to the entire offense (Although Wright and Moore are both studs). The defense turned around, but the offense honestly looks as bad, if not worse, despite adding Moore as a weapon, and dramatically upgrading Right Tackle.

Personally, I don't see how you can keep Fields going into next season, but I also don't really see a clean scenario where A rookie's season is really setup for success either....    Say you get a mid 2nd for Fields.

1.A  is going to the QB

1.B you are already either getting an offensive tackle or WR.... If you think you need a LT it's either here or nothing.... BUT if you need a real game changing WR it's either here or nothing. You only get 1.

You then have nothing until mid 2nd, without trading up FUTURE capital to try and dig the offense out of the hole it's already in.... For my Money, I think you kind of have to "all in" this change and try and get back in near pick 32 +- 5 and get another weapon.... but the weapons here are riskier.  This is also the range where you need to look at Centers and starting quality OGs

By the third round the talent kind of dries up it feels like and offensive picks beyond that are all blind throws at a dartboard.

[AZBearsFan]

5 hours ago, Epyon said:

One could argue this even being a question is the single largest indictment against the current staff (including Poles)..... We had literally one damn job this season: Figure out if Fields is the guy....  The fanbase is completely divided because there really isn't a clear cut consensus answer to that question, specifically because the staff went out of their way to try and revamp the entire defense, with only 2 additions to the entire offense (Although Wright and Moore are both studs). The defense turned around, but the offense honestly looks as bad, if not worse, despite adding Moore as a weapon, and dramatically upgrading Right Tackle.

 

I’m with you here. It’s possible (but unlikely) that they had already decided what they have in Fields before this year, but really what it looks more like to me is some really unfortunate bad luck for Poles.

No GMs have a 100% hit rate, but Poles’ personnel move hit rate since the end of 2022 has been really high. The problem is, all of his misses have been on offense, in places that significantly undermine the passing game. Looking at all the starter and top depth level moves following the decision to trade #1 and roll with Fields last March:

As far as hits go, Edmunds, Edwards and Stevenson have all been really solid additions. Terell Smith looks solid as depth with starter potential. Dexter looks like a real player who may be a dude (his pressure rates the past month have been absurdly high). Billings was an under the radar run stuffer signing who’s been so good he’s already been extended. The Sweat addition midseason has been a grand slam, as was the DJ Moore addition. Darnell Wright looks like a 10-year fixture at RT. The Kmet extension was widely criticized as an overpay but he’s certainly lived up to it this year. Nate Davis has been a middle of the road veteran starter on a contract that pays him as one. I don’t know that he’s a hit per se, but it’s not a miss. I wanted us to sign a kicker with a bigger leg but Santos all of a sudden added 5 yards to his range this offseason and has been outstanding all season. That’s a ton of hits for one offseason, and Poles deserves his flowers for that.

As for the glaring misses though, center has been a complete disaster. Poles took the calculated risk that swapping a team captain in Whitehair back to C could squeeze one more season of competence out of an aging vet and instead his decline continued and maybe accelerated only to be accentuated by the fact that a healthy Lucas Patrick has continued to be far less capable than he was in Green Bay, leaving a hole that consistently undermines the offense and frequently has Fields running for his life rather than being able to trust the pocket. The other big miss is at WR, where Poles counted on either last year’s trade acquisition (Claypool) to show the talent he flashed early on in Pittsburgh or for Mooney to bounce back toward his 2021 form. Neither has happened and arguably both have done the opposite direction, leaving a pretty big hole at anything below WR1 on the depth chart. With a developing young QB, center and WR were probably the two positions we could least afford to miss on, and that’s where we missed, especially if he’s still evaluating Fields and not decided on his future. 

[Sugashane]

41 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

I’m with you here. It’s possible (but unlikely) that they had already decided what they have in Fields before this year, but really what it looks more like to me is some really unfortunate bad luck for Poles.

No GMs have a 100% hit rate, but Poles’ personnel move hit rate since the end of 2022 has been really high. The problem is, all of his misses have been on offense, in places that significantly undermine the passing game. Looking at all the starter and top depth level moves following the decision to trade #1 and roll with Fields last March:

As far as hits go, Edmunds, Edwards and Stevenson have all been really solid additions. Terell Smith looks solid as depth with starter potential. Dexter looks like a real player who may be a dude (his pressure rates the past month have been absurdly high). Billings was an under the radar run stuffer signing who’s been so good he’s already been extended. The Sweat addition midseason has been a grand slam, as was the DJ Moore addition. Darnell Wright looks like a 10-year fixture at RT. The Kmet extension was widely criticized as an overpay but he’s certainly lived up to it this year. Nate Davis has been a middle of the road veteran starter on a contract that pays him as one. I don’t know that he’s a hit per se, but it’s not a miss. I wanted us to sign a kicker with a bigger leg but Santos all of a sudden added 5 yards to his range this offseason and has been outstanding all season. That’s a ton of hits for one offseason, and Poles deserves his flowers for that.

As for the glaring misses though, center has been a complete disaster. Poles took the calculated risk that swapping a team captain in Whitehair back to C could squeeze one more season of competence out of an aging vet and instead his decline continued and maybe accelerated only to be accentuated by the fact that a healthy Lucas Patrick has continued to be far less capable than he was in Green Bay, leaving a hole that consistently undermines the offense and frequently has Fields running for his life rather than being able to trust the pocket. The other big miss is at WR, where Poles counted on either last year’s trade acquisition (Claypool) to show the talent he flashed early on in Pittsburgh or for Mooney to bounce back toward his 2021 form. Neither has happened and arguably both have done the opposite direction, leaving a pretty big hole at anything below WR1 on the depth chart. With a developing young QB, center and WR were probably the two positions we could least afford to miss on, and that’s where we missed, especially if he’s still evaluating Fields and not decided on his future. 

I am telling myself that Poles' ability to get solid defenders will allow Harbaugh to be lured here. Why? Because Harbaugh wants control but will allow Poles to gather talent on defense while he gets his control of the offensive signings and draft picks. He gets to control what he wants, gets to get his megadeal, and Poles makes sure the Bears don't have the Trestman era issues with an impotent defense that holds the whole team back. Poles stacks the defense to make his Harbaugh's job a bit easier, Harbaugh gets to pick who he wants at QB, picks all offensive players and has 100% control of the final roster.

Irrational logical gymnastics? Yes. Possible this logic works out? Not a chance in hell.

Do I care? No. lol

[G08]

Justin Fields last 17 starts:

61.67% / 3,019 passing yards (454 attempts) / 6.65 YPA / 24 TDs / 13 INTs / 86.9 rating / 59 sacks / 1,207 rushing yards / 7 TDs / 5 fumbles lost

31 TDs / 18 turnovers

Jalen Hurts last 17 starts:

64.89% / 4,096 passing yards (603 attempts) / 7.42 YPA / 21 TDs / 15 INTs / 87.8 rating / 41 sacks / 693 rushing yards / 18 TDs / 5 fumbles lost

39 TDs / 20 turnovers

Trevor Lawrence last 17 starts:

66.15% / 4,118 passing yards (576 attempts) / 7.15 YPA / 19 TDs / 11 INTs / 90.0 rating / 35 sacks / 352 rushing yards / 5 TDs / 8 fumbles lost

24 TDs / 19 turnovers

Joe Burrow last 17 starts:

66.94% / 3,894 passing yards (599 attempts) / 6.50 YPA / 28 TDs / 10 INTs / 93.6 rating / 33 sacks / 199 rushing yards / 1 TD / 2 fumbles lost

29 TDs / 12 turnovers

[JibjeResearch]

17 minutes ago, G08 said:

Justin Fields last 17 starts:

61.67% / 3,019 passing yards (454 attempts) / 6.65 YPA / 24 TDs / 13 INTs / 86.9 rating / 59 sacks / 1,207 rushing yards / 7 TDs / 5 fumbles lost

31 TDs / 18 turnovers

Jalen Hurts last 17 starts:

64.89% / 4,096 passing yards (603 attempts) / 7.42 YPA / 21 TDs / 15 INTs / 87.8 rating / 41 sacks / 693 rushing yards / 18 TDs / 5 fumbles lost

39 TDs / 20 turnovers

Trevor Lawrence last 17 starts:

66.15% / 4,118 passing yards (576 attempts) / 7.15 YPA / 19 TDs / 11 INTs / 90.0 rating / 35 sacks / 352 rushing yards / 5 TDs / 8 fumbles lost

24 TDs / 19 turnovers

Joe Burrow last 17 starts:

66.94% / 3,894 passing yards (599 attempts) / 6.50 YPA / 28 TDs / 10 INTs / 93.6 rating / 33 sacks / 199 rushing yards / 1 TD / 2 fumbles lost

29 TDs / 12 turnovers

Those QBs' stats are comparable!  JF1 needs to get his short passing game going, learn it from how Bagent throws the short passes lolz

Now, let's compare those teams' other players and coaches.  This is the problem for the Bears.

[G08]

3 minutes ago, JibjeResearch said:

Those QBs' stats are comparable!  JF1 needs to get his short passing game going, learn it from how Bagent throws the short passes lolz

Now, let's compare those teams' other players and coaches.  This is the problem for the Bears.

His sack number is alarming and needs to come down significantly. I was surprised to see that his 'fumbles lost' / overall turnovers was on par with these QBs, though!