The MVP race

[Manny/Patrick]

The NFL world wants Purdy to pull a Delhomme and throw 5 picks and go into irrelevance

[SteelKing728]

4 hours ago, Forge said:

Purdy not being helped out be a tremendous supporting cast has never been an argument I have made. The hyperbole is a bit tough to stomach sometimes. The hypotheticals are annoying because people automatically just assume that another player can do what he can in this system or that he can't do what others are doing production wise in other environments. I think that entire stance is largely faulty. 

You don't get 10 yards per pass and 9.33 ANY / A and 31 points per game without both a QB playing insanely well and a roster that is really damn good. 

I think people assume if Trey Lance was still there he'd put up better numbers because "hE's GoT a BeTtEr ArM dOh"

[SteelKing728]

1 hour ago, BetterCallSaul said:

Interesting…where is Joe Flacco?

It's over 9000!!!!!!

[Duluther]

Why does anyone care about the MVP award at this point? It's not even based on direct performance. It is literally based on a hypothetical, as we see in these last few pages (i.e., "If this player goes down, we are f****d," and that's why he's MVP). And worst yet, if that hypothetical happens (e.g., Tom Brady is out for all of 2008), then that player doesn't win (Brady 08, Rodgers 23, etc). 

I'm not advocating for Rodgers or anyone who is injured most of the year to win MVP, but by the self-evident formula of the award, there's no better case than when these elite QB's do get injured. More than anything, that just goes to show how lame this all is.

[Trojan]

57 minutes ago, Duluther said:

Why does anyone care about the MVP award at this point? It's not even based on direct performance. It is literally based on a hypothetical, as we see in these last few pages (i.e., "If this player goes down, we are f****d," and that's why he's MVP). And worst yet, if that hypothetical happens (e.g., Tom Brady is out for all of 2008), then that player doesn't win (Brady 08, Rodgers 23, etc). 

I'm not advocating for Rodgers or anyone who is injured most of the year to win MVP, but by the self-evident formula of the award, there's no better case than when these elite QB's do get injured. More than anything, that just goes to show how lame this all is.

it's QB performance on a winning team unless the field is mid and a RB is having a once in a decade type year.

[notthatbluestuff]

 

[Thomas5737]

This thread is 60 pages long so I don't think I'm going to say anything that hasn't been said but I like to hear my fingers type so....

The MVP isn't really about most valuable. The most valuable player is the player who played the biggest role in winning their team the championship. The voting happens prior to that so I guess you go to the player who is most valuable to the team in the best position to win a championship. Those would be the two teams with a bye so most valuable would probably be a QB on one of the two #1 seeds. Unless of course he isn't their most valuable player but that would be unlikely.

It's really an award that goes to the player who accomplishes the most on a winning team. Whether it is TDs, yards or whatever. If you win 10 games you are eligible, pretty much.

I forget my original point.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

As a fan I just want this MVP discourse to be over. Mercifully the 49ers/Ravens game will bring the circus to an end. Final 2 weeks shouldn't matter much. SB MVP is more important anyway. 

[Soko]

Microcosm of the Purdy debate, but are we sure either Aiyuk or Deebo are even bonafide top 10 receivers at this point? Jefferson, Hill, Diggs, Adams, AJB, Chase, and Lamb, I think all have pretty firm spots. Not in that order, but pretty firm on being the top 7 or so. So between Kupp, Moore, Evans, Metcalf, McLaurin, Smith, Higgins, Allen, and Waddle, we’re for sure putting one of both of those guys in the top 3of that group? Shrug. 

I still maintain Philly’s got the best offensive talent (excluding QB), top to bottom. Kittle and CMC top out over Goedert and Swift, but I think the Philly WRs are definitely the better duo, and the offensive line isn’t one HOFer + JAGs. They’re a complete unit.

Shanahan’s coaching probably factors in in a major way there, however. 

[Soggust]

13 minutes ago, Soko said:

Microcosm of the Purdy debate, but are we sure either Aiyuk or Deebo are even bonafide top 10 receivers at this point? Jefferson, Hill, Diggs, Adams, AJB, Chase, and Lamb, I think all have pretty firm spots. Not in that order, but pretty firm on being the top 7 or so. So between Kupp, Moore, Evans, Metcalf, McLaurin, Smith, Higgins, Allen, and Waddle, we’re for sure putting one of both of those guys in the top 3of that group? Shrug. 

I still maintain Philly’s got the best offensive talent (excluding QB), top to bottom. Kittle and CMC top out over Goedert and Swift, but I think the Philly WRs are definitely the better duo, and the offensive line isn’t one HOFer + JAGs. They’re a complete unit.

Shanahan’s coaching probably factors in in a major way there, however. 

I actually really like and agree with this take and I'll add another one of my dumb takes I've been thinking about -

We punish Purdy for having a good "system" for QBs, right? 

Is it really THAT much easier to play in Kyle Shanahan's system as opposed to a system that was built entirely around you?

Meaning, when you are the franchise QB (I'm attacking Lamar here btw but any franchise QB), the system is generally really tailored towards you and what you like to do. When you commit hundreds of millions of dollars, the entire franchise is often weighing and evaluating your opinions.

Stepping into someone else's system, without huge input on the offense, and NOT audibling or changing the play can be difficult to perform in as well. We see this all the time with veteran QBs who want more freedom struggling vs opinionated coaches.

Does the fact that Purdy can step into someone else's system and perform add more value than someone who has an entire franchise built around them?

[Soko]

11 minutes ago, Soggust said:

I actually really like and agree with this take and I'll add another one of my dumb takes I've been thinking about -

We punish Purdy for having a good "system" for QBs, right? 

Is it really THAT much easier to play in Kyle Shanahan's system as opposed to a system that was built entirely around you?

Meaning, when you are the franchise QB (I'm attacking Lamar here btw but any franchise QB), the system is generally really tailored towards you and what you like to do. When you commit hundreds of millions of dollars, the entire franchise is often weighing and evaluating your opinions.

Stepping into someone else's system, without huge input on the offense, and NOT audibling or changing the play can be difficult to perform in as well. We see this all the time with veteran QBs who want more freedom struggling vs opinionated coaches.

Does the fact that Purdy can step into someone else's system and perform add more value than someone who has an entire franchise built around them?

It’s a rabbit hole of a discussion, one that I can’t even really entertain because I don’t know enough about each playcaller/QB to confidently talk about what these guys do presnap, tbh. 

NE’s having that issue right now because BoB is giving the QBs complete control at the LOS, and it’s confusing the **** out of them. They’re doing too much thinking, which leads to mistakes, which leads to even the pre snap stuff falling apart. Vet QBs probably like it and are more comfortable being in control, but I think we’ve seen decades of the big four (Peyton, Brees, Brady, Rodgers) being maestros at the LOS, that we think the best QBs now are just naturally doing the same. I think we see QBs make audibles or kill a play or identify the MIKE and assume that they’re doing a ton, when that’s not always the case. 

Is an offense with tons of checks and reads and options presnap more difficult to defend? Probably, when done with maximum efficacy. Is it harder on the QB? Probably. Is it also difficult to be “forced” into a role in an offense compared to the coaches working around what you do well? Definitely, although it’s hard to gauge that. 

It all makes for interesting discussion but I can’t bring much to the table as far as the MVP candidates go, and how they command their offenses.

Edited December 20, 2023 by Soko

[Soggust]

12 minutes ago, Soggust said:

I actually really like and agree with this take and I'll add another one of my dumb takes I've been thinking about -

We punish Purdy for having a good "system" for QBs, right? 

Is it really THAT much easier to play in Kyle Shanahan's system as opposed to a system that was built entirely around you?

Meaning, when you are the franchise QB (I'm attacking Lamar here btw but any franchise QB), the system is generally really tailored towards you and what you like to do. When you commit hundreds of millions of dollars, the entire franchise is often weighing and evaluating your opinions.

Stepping into someone else's system, without huge input on the offense, and NOT audibling or changing the play can be difficult to perform in as well. We see this all the time with veteran QBs who want more freedom struggling vs opinionated coaches.

Does the fact that Purdy can step into someone else's system and perform add more value than someone who has an entire franchise built around them?

No, you idiot because if we are saying the franchise is weighing and evaluating their opinions, then they are providing more value with those opinions and, if they control more of the offense, are again providing more value. 

tldr - thanks for letting me think out loud here lol.

 

3 minutes ago, Soko said:

It’s a rabbit hole of a discussion, one that I can’t even really entertain because I don’t know enough about each playcaller/QB to confidently talk about what these guys do presnap, tbh. 

NE’s having that issue right now because BoB is giving the QBs complete control at the LOS, and it’s confusing the **** out of them. They’re doing too much thinking, which leads to mistakes, which leads to even the pre snap stuff falling apart. Vet QBs probably like it and are more comfortable being in control, but I think we’ve seen decades of the big four (Peyton, Brees, Brady, Rodgers) being maestros at the LOS, that we think the best QBs now are just naturally doing the same. 

Is an offense with tons of checks and reads and options presnap more difficult to defend? Probably, when done with maximum efficacy. Is it harder on the QB? Probably. Is it also difficult to be “forced” into a role in an offense compared to the coaches working around what you do well? Definitely, although it’s hard to gauge that. 

It all makes for interesting discussion but I can’t bring much to the table as far as the MVP candidates go, and how they command their offenses.

I think the age take is really a strong point, especially considering Purdy. Shanahan himself has mentioned how one of the things he really liked about Purdy was that he didn't have those vet habits that say, a Matt Ryan, had. 

My point might have had more merit if it was a Tom Brady switching teams after 15+ years and learning a new system, but when it comes to young qbs it probably is a benefit to not have to shoulder the burden of controlling so much of the offense. 

[Soko]

55 minutes ago, Soggust said:

when it comes to young qbs it probably is a benefit to not have to shoulder the burden of controlling so much of the offense. 

A coach that makes it easier on his young QB? Where does one obtain such power?

[AngusMcFife]

13 hours ago, straighthate said:

Touché, I have not watched that many Ravens games this year. However, I just looked to see if what I thought I had seen matched stats. Article on the Ravens website was prior to this weekend, but Lamar’s pressure rate is 18th highest in the league, so let’s say average, but his scramble rate is the highest of his career and highest in the league at 12.5%. Could be other reasons for it, but seems like that’s not exactly proof that I’m wrong when I said rather than throw he tucks it and runs. But you could have other explanations. I did a quick search and saw an outdated article (I think four games ago) that showed 32% of their pass plays have three open receivers 12% have four open receivers. Both those numbers were up significantly from last year. So seems to not help your argument that it’s outdated that he scrambles even with open receivers. But seriously, haven’t watched enough of him, it’s my feeling from the games I have seen and a quick check of some (outdated) stats. Feel free to explain what you’re seeing different. 
 

And once again, I never argued Lamar’s value as an MVP. Sure I compared him, but never said he was more or less deserving than Purdy. Just said many of you haven’t watched Purdy and are choosing not to look at the stats but are ripping on him cuz you heard it on someone’s podcast. I also said I’m excited to hear where he ranks when the players (who understand the game and what goes on on the field better than us or ESPN) when the season ends. 
 

Looking forward to Monday night!  
 

And to the person who commented on how confident I am of Purdy or whatever…. MVP is based off this year. Not the next 3-4 years or draft status or last year. That’s my exact point. Some of you want him to prove over time he’s good. Doesn’t need to to be an mvp candidate. It’s a one year thing. 

I would need to see the rest of the league's numbers to know if 12.5% is significant or not. If other QBs are at 10%, then I'm not sure scramble 2 times more over the course of 100 passes is notable. That would work out to about to 1 extra scrambles every 2 games (or 8 extra scrambles for the whole season), which doesn't sound Lamar is "tucking and running" much more than others. I'd also be interested the success rate of the scrambles and what the success rate of QBs under pressures when throwing vs scrambling to assess whether the scrambling is effective or not. 

Anyhow, I agree if the season ended today the MVP should be Purdy. But if the Ravens win on Monday, then Lamar has an argument. 

I look forward to the game, although neither team really needs it. I wonder if either team will hold back some plays in case they think they might meet in the Super Bowl. 

  

[AngusMcFife]

2 hours ago, Soggust said:

Does the fact that Purdy can step into someone else's system and perform add more value than someone who has an entire franchise built around them?

I would counter that Purdy was scouted and drafted by the 49ers to play in Shanahan's system, so the coaches already identified him as someone with the skillset that matched what the offense needed at QB.