AZBearsFan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 24 minutes ago, StLunatic88 said: Im not even saying that Caleb cant play in structure, thats just a question that needs to be answered. And then the follow up is, will he commit to playing that way? I think this is the biggest question about Williams and, ironically, it’s really the same question people have about Fields too. There’s no question Fields can make the out of structure crazy “Holy **** how did he do that?” plays at the NFL level - the questions are about his ability to do everything else consistently. He has shown the ability to play within structure in spurts, and certainly more so in 2023 than before 2023. How much better can he get at that, especially if that structure is less dog **** without Getsy? For Fields under a new OC and for Williams in an NFL offense, there will have to be significant projection at this point to answer that, and we won’t have any clarity before the QB decision has to be made. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 4 hours ago, Epyon said: Fields on the other hand, I'm 100% out on. The kid is a bust It’s semantics and relative to expectations, but I wouldn’t call Fields a bust at all. EJ Manuel was a bust. Kyle Boller was a bust. Christian Ponder was a bust. Jake Locker was a bust. Dwayne Haskins (RIP) was a bust. Paxton Lynch was a bust. Johnny Manziel was a bust. Cade McNown was a bust (shudders). To me a bust is a highly drafted guy who’s either entirely out of the league in 3-4 years or a complete afterthought. That’s not Fields at all. Fields is pretty well established to be a starting caliber QB in the NFL (if he wasn’t he wouldn’t have any trade value of consequence at all this offseason, right?) and still may end up being significantly better down the road than that whether you believe in him or not. I would say a more fair characterization of Fields would be to say that he’s been a disappointment in Chicago. It doesn’t matter what label is put on him I suppose - I just don’t think “bust” fits him. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
refundmytickets Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 11 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said: It’s semantics and relative to expectations, but I wouldn’t call Fields a bust at all. EJ Manuel was a bust. Kyle Boller was a bust. Christian Ponder was a bust. Jake Locker was a bust. Dwayne Haskins (RIP) was a bust. Paxton Lynch was a bust. Johnny Manziel was a bust. Cade McNown was a bust (shudders). To me a bust is a highly drafted guy who’s either entirely out of the league in 3-4 years or a complete afterthought. That’s not Fields at all. Fields is pretty well established to be a starting caliber QB in the NFL (if he wasn’t he wouldn’t have any trade value of consequence at all this offseason, right?) and still may end up being significantly better down the road than that whether you believe in him or not. I would say a more fair characterization of Fields would be to say that he’s been a disappointment in Chicago. It doesn’t matter what label is put on him I suppose - I just don’t think “bust” fits him. Different degrees of bust. Fields is like Marcus Mariota or Geno Smith. He's disappointing in that he's not one of 10 guys who can reliably play QB at a high level. Could have been worse. Fields is still somewhat viable as an NFL QB. He could have been Zach Wilson or Jamarcus Russell. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 We do not want to give up on Fields, there is still plenty of untapped potential. We also have the 1st Pick in the Draft. No one ever KNoWS what these college Rooks will do at the NFL level. Every one of the following dates will give us a little more time and understanding for our own situation with JF, and what the NFL landscape (qb market) is EXACTLY AnD also give us more time to learn who and what these Rookies are. Feb. 1 – East-West Shrine Bowl (Ford Center, Frisco, Texas) Feb. 3 – Senior Bowl (Hancock Whitney Stadium, Mobile, Alabama) Feb. 4 – Pro Bowl Gamesl (Camping World Stadium, Orlando, Florida) Feb. 11 – Super Bowl LVIII (Allegiant Stadium, Las Vegas, Nevada) Feb. 20 – The first day clubs can designate franchise or transition players. Feb. 27-March 4 – NFL Scouting Combine (Lucas Oil Stadium, Indianapolis, Indiana) March March 5 – Deadline for clubs to designate franchise or transition players. March 11-13 – Clubs are permitted to contact, and enter into contract negotiations with, the certified agents of players who will become Unrestricted Free Agents upon the expiration of their 2023 player contracts at 1 p.m. PT on March 13. March 13 (prior to 1 p.m. PT) – All clubs must be under the 2024 salary cap. March 13 – The 2024 league year and free agency period begin at 1:00 p.m. PT. All 2023 player contracts expire at this time, and the trading period for 2024 begins. Clubs can also begin signing free agents. March 24-27 – Annual League Meeting (Orlando, Florida) April April 1 – Clubs that hired a new head coach may begin offseason workout programs. April 15 – Clubs with returning head coaches may begin offseason workout programs. April 19 – Deadline for restricted free agents to sign offer sheets. April 25-27 – NFL Draft (Detroit, Michigan) May May 2 – Deadline for clubs to exercise fifth-year option for players selected in the first round of the 2021 Draft. There are no have-to's along the way. We can take a wait and see approach all along the way. We are sitting in a position of strength at ALL angles. We gave up ALot to get JF, moving up from 19 iirc to 11. Teams think they can low-ball us for JF bc it is assumed thay we are drafting a qb. I am not advocating that we MUST go into next season with 2 QBs, but if we do get a quality return for JF it would be reckless to just give him away; AND its good for Rookies to sit for a while at 1st anyways. If we have both, our chances of GETTING IT RIGHT is SIGnificantLY enhanced !! Flus is the right kind of HC for such a thing. If we learn from CW that he will not accept being on the same roster with JF and having to pass JF up in order to play, then we probably have our answer for whether or not CW is the right guy to draft 👍🏻 Would Jaden Daniels balk at being on the same roster as JF ? Probably not. Would JD be an EXCELLENT backup for a year or maybe 2 for JF ? YES MosT DEF ! Could we move down and Draft JD, while picking up sig assets ? YES Should we go into 2024 with blinders on, and have only one concrete plan in place ? No. Should we hold out on drafting, or moving JF until we know who and what these college QBs are ? Yes. Is there a world in which 2 high-profile qbs can co-exist on the same roster without fracturing the lockerroom ? YES. Do agents for college rookies have any real leverage when we have JF on the roster already and their clients are drafted in the 1st round ? NO ! Does JFs agent have any leverage when we we have a high-profile Rookie in place to take over for JF if he decides to try and sit ? NO ! There are multiple AND varying MOVING parts here. BuT, we are in a perfect position for EVERYTHING ! We do not HAVE to do ANYTHING that we are not perfectly ready to do. Does this mean go into the season with JF and Rookie at all costs ? NO Is it most wise to wait and see all along the way and to not make ANY move unless we are entirely ready to do so ? Yes Should we trade JF bc a rookie says so ? NO If we hold onto JF (bc teams lowball us) while drafting a rookie, and prepare to go into the season with both QBs, teams will realize that in order to get JF, they need to step it up ! Teams want JF, but they also want to lowball us as much as possible for him. This is a UNIQUE unprecedented situation that we find ourselves in. We are in a position of power. We do not have to conduct our business according to past models or crusty old NFL common sense notions. JF and a high-profile Rookie CAN co-exist on the same roster for a while. Teams wanting JF want him NOW and will not want to wait and risk injury and practice reps in their own TCs. When they see we mean business and are willing to go into the season with BOTH qbs, they will up their offers. If they do not then we will have an opportunity to see and KNOW FOR SURE what JF can do with more weapons and a diff OC, all while our Rookie sits and learns AND PLAYS SOME REGULAR SEASON GAMES BECAUSE jf WILL MISS SOME GAMES Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 👆🏻are you convinced @Bigbear72 ha ha @AZBearsFan @Sugashane @StLunatic88 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigbear72 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 21 minutes ago, SLCbear said: 👆🏻are you convinced @Bigbear72 ha ha @AZBearsFan @Sugashane @StLunatic88 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 6 minutes ago, Bigbear72 said: We WILL draft a QB. Are you willing to give up on JF AND also give him away for a return that is likely well below his actual value just bc you drafted a QB ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBears019 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 13 minutes ago, SLCbear said: We WILL draft a QB. Are you willing to give up on JF AND also give him away for a return that is likely well below his actual value just bc you drafted a QB ?? What is Fields’s “actual” value? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Epyon Posted January 16 Author Share Posted January 16 4 minutes ago, SLCbear said: We WILL draft a QB. Are you willing to give up on JF AND also give him away for a return that is likely well below his actual value just bc you drafted a QB ?? The entirety of his value is whatever he fetches in pick(s).... If the only offers are low balls, that just means the rest of the league thinks he sucks too.. If the offer was a rediculous over pay like #8 overall I might actually have more pause because someone else thinks he's worth dramatically more than I do, but ultimately I'd still have to trust my evaluation and I make that deal as fast as possible. Now personally, I think even the Steelers first is probably an overpay, but you never know what a desperate team will do. We gave up #32 for Claypool (though we probably expected it to be more like #48 at the time). A second rounder could be about right, but if I'm trying to deal with Atlanta, I'd want Bijan.....maybe even straight up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 8 hours ago, Epyon said: No. I do not agree with the tribalism regarding Fields vs Williams.... I'm not 100% rabid "Caleb or riot" like the Fields fanatics seem to be. I think Williams is the best qb of this draft based upon what I can scout via tape available to me... But I wouldn't be upset if we took Maye as an instant reaction... Confused and apprehensive because Maye feels riskier to me,but I don't get to sit down with the guys and get to know them in any meaningful way, so the picture for me there isn't as definitive. I could even be talked into Daniels or Penix with their own concerns. Fields on the other hand, I'm 100% out on. The kid is a bust, and it's genuinely baffling to me how anyone even considers giving him another year when you have the easiest and most obvious out via the #1 pick this year. What in the world has he done in the last 3 years to convince you he's the guy? As for your question regarding Caleb: His arm talent absolutely embarrasses the other guys who have come out of that scheme/coach for starters. His arm talent is going to be top 5 in the nfl the day he's drafted. Now to be clear that's not saying he's going to be a top 5 qb, just that his arm talent is. This is a guy who can throw 65 air yards down field from the right hash to the left numbers without setting his feet, and while on the run. It's kind of absurd. He also has great pocket awareness, and great ability to keep his eyes down field while being pressured (his 22 tape is much better at this than his 23 tape admittedly) I'd also add... I'd literally also take any of Hurts, Mayfield, or Kyler over Fields based upon what we've seen from Fields so far in his career, and I've got Caleb far above where I had any of them coming out. Beyond that, watching his tape, the air raid system actually has him often making full Field, 3 level reads, since that's one of the major points of the air raid system. He carried his team on his back this year with no weapons of note, no offensive line of note, and almost no defense at all...he elevated a weak roster, and the year he actually had a good weapon, he looked dominant, won the Heisman, and got tagged as "generational" because of it. He's also a guy who came into college and immediately played well in a massive rivalry game, and basically started his entire career after that. I will be honest with you man...you are the most fanatical poster on here when it comes to this debate...I think everyone can at least somewhat see it from either side...you seem incapable of doing so and feel the need to rubbish one to big up the other... Now I agree with a lot of what you are saying on Caleb...he does have excellent arm talent & he has made some incredible throws...from my research I would say he throws a better deep ball than Mayfield where it doesn't ever sail on him...he has sharper footwork and his technique doesn't break down when pressured as much as it does with Baker...in comparison to Murray I think it is more the mental aspect of being able to read and break down defences that puts him ahead of Kyler... If I am honest the QB I see the most in Caleb is Russell Wilson with more arm angle throws...if he is prime Wilson on the field then great...we just need to hope he isn't Wilson off the field. Couple of things I don't agree with in your post... Yes the Air Raid system asks you to make reads at all 3 levels...but they are usually wide open easy reads we have seen countless less talented QBs make and put up massive numbers...there is a reason Mahomes is a true outlier from that scheme and that is something that has to be taken into account. The idea he didn't have talent at USC on offence is a falsehood...plenty of 4 & 5 start talents on that offence and as much as the defence was terrible we have all seen the graphic of his individual performance against ranked teams compared to unranked teams...again a point that has to be taking into account in the evaluation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 3 hours ago, AZBearsFan said: It’s semantics and relative to expectations, but I wouldn’t call Fields a bust at all. EJ Manuel was a bust. Kyle Boller was a bust. Christian Ponder was a bust. Jake Locker was a bust. Dwayne Haskins (RIP) was a bust. Paxton Lynch was a bust. Johnny Manziel was a bust. Cade McNown was a bust (shudders). To me a bust is a highly drafted guy who’s either entirely out of the league in 3-4 years or a complete afterthought. That’s not Fields at all. Fields is pretty well established to be a starting caliber QB in the NFL (if he wasn’t he wouldn’t have any trade value of consequence at all this offseason, right?) and still may end up being significantly better down the road than that whether you believe in him or not. I would say a more fair characterization of Fields would be to say that he’s been a disappointment in Chicago. It doesn’t matter what label is put on him I suppose - I just don’t think “bust” fits him. My favorite thing is the people who call Fields a "bust" are the same people who think we will get plenty of high value trade compensation for him. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AZBearsFan Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 1 hour ago, SLCbear said: 👆🏻are you convinced @Bigbear72 ha ha @AZBearsFan @Sugashane @StLunatic88 I couldn’t disagree with you more on just about all of that, tbh. 1 hour ago, SLCbear said: If we hold onto JF (bc teams lowball us) while drafting a rookie, and prepare to go into the season with both QBs, teams will realize that in order to get JF, they need to step it up ! Teams want JF, but they also want to lowball us as much as possible for him. By doing this you’d be under preparing both quarterbacks and making it more difficult for either to succeed. In your hypothetical the only “win” from keeping Fields is if he plays really well to start the season, and this makes that harder. 1 hour ago, SLCbear said: JF and a high-profile Rookie CAN co-exist on the same roster for a while. Teams wanting JF want him NOW and will not want to wait and risk injury and practice reps in their own TCs. When they see we mean business and are willing to go into the season with BOTH qbs, they will up their offers. If they do not then we will have an opportunity to see and KNOW FOR SURE what JF can do with more weapons and a diff OC, all while our Rookie sits and learns AND PLAYS SOME REGULAR SEASON GAMES BECAUSE jf WILL MISS SOME GAMES If Fields gets that opportunity and Fields balls out then we will have completely wasted the most valuable draft asset any team has had except for whatever we might get for CW in trade later, which would be largely offset by the fact that we’d still be on the hook for a crap ton of dead money from his fully guaranteed rookie contract if we trade him away. Is it an actual possibility? Sure. Someone could create this incredibly messy and conflict-laden situation for themselves. But the likelihood Poles actually chooses this option amongst all the available options is incredibly unlikely. Doing what maybe everyone but you expects (either trading Fields or trading the pick) would not be “conduct[ing] our business according to past models or crusty old NFL common sense notions” either - it would be applying actual human common sense to a situation that certainly calls for it. 44 minutes ago, SLCbear said: Are you willing to give up on JF AND also give him away for a return that is likely well below his actual value just bc you drafted a QB ?? His value on the trade market is what the market is willing to bear. That’s how markets work. Poles isn’t going to bamboozle some other GM here with some Three Card Monty. He’s trying to build a contending football team that’s a desirable destination franchise for free agents and draft picks alike. Jerking around what is pretty unquestionably the most popular and respected player in his locker room amongst the players because he’s not overwhelmed with what the market might bear to do something that will be pretty unpopular in the locker room to begin with (trade that guy away) would be as polar opposite of acting to build what he’s trying to build as possible. Edited January 16 by AZBearsFan 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madmike90 Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 (edited) 6 hours ago, G08 said: Valid question and I'm still very early in my "tape study" of Caleb, but what I can say about him is the following: Excellent mechanics, starting with his footwork and his base This enables him to throw from various arm slots and platforms He has an incredible ability to fade away from the pocket yet still throw with anticipation, velocity and accuracy He has the ability to throw WRs open / guide them into open space, which is paramount in today's NFL Top tier arm strength, one scout said he has a stronger arm than Patrick Mahomes (not sure I agree), but I saw the kid throw it 65 yards without over-exertion His ability to play from the pocket and, what left me shaking my head more than once, is his ability to navigate pressure, made defenders miss, and then pedal/shift back INTO the pocket while looking downfield. It's incredible He isn't as strong as Justin Fields (not many QBs are) but he does fight to break sacks and isn't shy of stiff-arming a defender coming at him (I can be a bit of a football meatball so I like that kind of fire in my QB) He is a threat to tuck the ball (or hold it out like a loaf of bread in this case) and run on you so defenses have to respect that ability as well as the RPO game He's ******* talented. I'm of the opinion he's a more polished QB than Justin Fields at this point, the biggest question for me (and one I won't ever be able to answer) boils down to his character/attitude/persona/leadership traits. Can he handle adversity and criticism? Can he take to tough coaching? How will he handle the Chicago media jumping down his throat every chance they get? The way he carries himself is only going to put more eyes on him and, if/when things aren't going well, will add even more scrutiny to him. I couldn't agree with any of this more... I think purely from a talent point of view on the field he is exceptional but the questions remain about the off-field stuff...now as we get deeper into the process many of those will either fade or become massive red flags... I am of the mindset now that we will draft Caleb...the reason being is an old boss I used to work for used to always say to me "think of the optics" doesn't always matter what you think is right or wrong but at times you need to question how others will view it...if Poles passes on Caleb after passing on Stroud (still rightly so by the way) and Caleb lights it up then Poles is pretty much so dead in the water...I think trying to copy the success Houston have had with Stroud and the Shanahan scheme is what we will attempt to do here with Caleb... Now I also think if Fields lands in the right place he will still go on to have a really good career...he is still clearly a starter in this league and would start right now at multiple different teams... I guess sometimes there doesn't need to be a winner and a loser in a situation...if Caleb was great here and Field was good somewhere else much like Stafford-Goff both sides could live with it... Still need some convincing it's the right move mind you. Edited January 16 by Madmike90 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 20 minutes ago, CBears019 said: What is Fields’s “actual” value? This is my point ! If what JF gives/can-give the Chicago Bears is not equal to the return that we will receive for him, then we have to keep him, at least in order to let the league know that we mean business, and will not just give him away. JFs value: Starting NFL QB, with electric homerun-any -given-play-running ability and upside/sig-upside. Any team trading for him NOW will have a full season to evaluate him before big contract is due. He is a perfect citizen and wired RIGHT. I've said all along his current value is Top 40 '24 Pick or future 1st, or stud non-qb player, OR top 64 '24 pick aanD young starter on manageable contract. What is JFs value to us ?? Well he is a starter and is getting better. We can only know his value now. Can we win a SB with him, with proper coaching and surrounding cast ? YES Can we win alot of SBs with him ? eh, probably not (see Tua and Jalen Hurts) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLCbear Posted January 16 Share Posted January 16 38 minutes ago, Epyon said: The entirety of his value is whatever he fetches in pick(s).... If the only offers are low balls, that just means that the rest of the league thinks he sucks too. Agree with you post except for these 2 statements We are not desperate. If we don't like what he is currently fetching, we don't have to trade him Every team will always try to lowball and then the price eventually moves up, doesn't mean they think he sucks. If they think he sucks, they wouldn't offer ANYthing for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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