The Offseason

[Acgott]

16 minutes ago, Shockwave said:

I love you bro... but... you really need to stop posting in absolutes like this. It's one thing to say " I doubt" "I don't think" ... but you've been posting on so many topics like you have an inside source on the matters... 

I can try to add in “I doubt” into my sentences. I can confirm I do not have insider information.

[Acgott]

 

[Acgott]

We don’t deserve to open on SNF again, but the Commanders are our oldest rival.

[minutemancl]

Art Stapleton has posted a few videos from rookie training camp. Theo Johnson is a freak. He stands out amongst other NFL players. He's huge, with super long arms, and he moves really well. Watch the videos, but it is even apparent in this picture of the rookie class:

[Acgott]

Looks like the new jerseys release tomorrow

https://x.com/giants/status/1790902486343311511?s=61&t=tus03feDbRZ35nlWoHPPOA

[minutemancl]

I was gonna post this in NFL Gen, but I decided I'd rather talk about it in context of the Giants: 

Quote

The top-16 QBs in passing yards last year: 

1. Tua
2. Goff
3. Dak
4. Josh Allen
5. Purdy
6. Mahomes
7. Love
8. Stroud
9. Mayfield
10. Trevor Lawrence
11. Stafford
12. Howell
13. Carr
14. Hurts
15. Lamar
16. Geno Smith

How many of them have either their biggest receiving weapon, or only receiving weapon, operate mostly out of the slot?

Tyreek Hill- 31% slot snaps, Jaylen Waddle- 19.4% slot snaps

Amon-Ra St Brown- 47.3% slot snaps

CeeDee Lamb- 51.3%, Brandin Cooks- 32.5%

Stefon Diggs- 30.3%, Dalton Kincaid 49.1%

Deebo Samuel- 16.7%, Brandon Aiyuk- 11%

Cooper Kupp- 55.3% slot snaps, Puka Nacua- 25.4% slot snaps

I didn't get everyone in there, but that's a decent sample size.

The reason I bring it up is the narrative surrounding the Giants of essentially "the whole WR corps is slot receivers". I don't think that is a legitimate argument because it is not true first of all (only player who had more than 40% of their snaps in the slot last year was Wan'Dale Robinson, which is how it should be), but also, a lot of teams are operating a successful passing game with having their #1 receiving option line up in the slot >= 50% of the time. Amon-Ra St Brown just had a 1500 yard season while taking just about 50% of his snaps from inside.

Malik Nabers, in his last year at LSU, played an almost exactly 50-50 split between outside and inside snaps. He produced everywhere. He's going to get moved all over this offense, similar to how CeeDee Lamb does for Dallas. Wan'Dale Robinson will be in the slot when Nabers isn't. Darius Slayton can play outside receiver, and, despite what the college tape tells you, Hyatt is an outside receiver in the NFL. He took 90% of his snaps from outside last year (in limited usage).

[GMENNATION]

3 hours ago, minutemancl said:

I was gonna post this in NFL Gen, but I decided I'd rather talk about it in context of the Giants: 

I didn't get everyone in there, but that's a decent sample size.

The reason I bring it up is the narrative surrounding the Giants of essentially "the whole WR corps is slot receivers". I don't think that is a legitimate argument because it is not true first of all (only player who had more than 40% of their snaps in the slot last year was Wan'Dale Robinson, which is how it should be), but also, a lot of teams are operating a successful passing game with having their #1 receiving option line up in the slot >= 50% of the time. Amon-Ra St Brown just had a 1500 yard season while taking just about 50% of his snaps from inside.

Malik Nabers, in his last year at LSU, played an almost exactly 50-50 split between outside and inside snaps. He produced everywhere. He's going to get moved all over this offense, similar to how CeeDee Lamb does for Dallas. Wan'Dale Robinson will be in the slot when Nabers isn't. Darius Slayton can play outside receiver, and, despite what the college tape tells you, Hyatt is an outside receiver in the NFL. He took 90% of his snaps from outside last year (in limited usage).

IMO there's a difference between lining up in the slot and being a slot-only player. Wan'Dale is a slot only player, which limits his ceiling and makes him easier to defend. It's more about having an alpha receiver that has inside/outside versatility, who can then line up in the slot to create mismatches. 

Malik Nabers can definitely be that person. But last year, too many of the guys were one dimensional (either slot only or outside only). 

[minutemancl]

43 minutes ago, GMENNATION said:

IMO there's a difference between lining up in the slot and being a slot-only player. Wan'Dale is a slot only player, which limits his ceiling and makes him easier to defend. It's more about having an alpha receiver that has inside/outside versatility, who can then line up in the slot to create mismatches. 

Malik Nabers can definitely be that person. But last year, too many of the guys were one dimensional (either slot only or outside only). 

Who else besides Wan'Dale fits the "slot only" archetype? The thought was Hyatt was that type of player coming out of college, because he got free releases from the slot every snap in Tennessee, but he played 90% of his snaps outside last year. We know Slayton can play outside. We know Hodgins can play outside. Waller had slot snaps (~30% of his snaps), but he's a tight end who also releases off the line a lot. I'm not even counting Campbell; he was just awful.

That's partly what I think is a false narrative, that we had a lot of "slot only" guys. It's really only Wan'Dale. Hell, even Shep, historically, played about 50-50 slot/outside. I think I made a post about it a few years ago, when there was a false groupthink that he was a slot only guy.

[GMENNATION]

On 5/17/2024 at 12:56 PM, minutemancl said:

Who else besides Wan'Dale fits the "slot only" archetype? The thought was Hyatt was that type of player coming out of college, because he got free releases from the slot every snap in Tennessee, but he played 90% of his snaps outside last year. We know Slayton can play outside. We know Hodgins can play outside. Waller had slot snaps (~30% of his snaps), but he's a tight end who also releases off the line a lot. I'm not even counting Campbell; he was just awful.

That's partly what I think is a false narrative, that we had a lot of "slot only" guys. It's really only Wan'Dale. Hell, even Shep, historically, played about 50-50 slot/outside. I think I made a post about it a few years ago, when there was a false groupthink that he was a slot only guy.

So let me caveat this with: I don't have stats to back this up BUT I'm saying guys are either slot guys or outside guys in our offense, and not many can do both. Not just about slot guys. My feelings also could just be the result of a bad WR room in general LOL.

But you've already mentioned Wan'Dale. We all know he can't play outside. Hyatt couldn't run a full route tree. He can't really do damage in the slot except for getting a free release. He was rather one dimensional. Isaiah Hodgins could do both in the sense that he isn't great at doing either. He's just not a good WR. Same thing for Parris Campbell. You wrote him off - and I agree - but the Giants pretty much made him a slot only guy. In his prime, Shep was one of those guys but obviously was cooked last season. And finally, Slayton. Slayton is a good WR. He has outside-inside versatility. But even he falls short of being a mismatch in either place. 

I guess the long and short of it is we are too easy for a defense to gameplan against or adjust to. That's why DJ's legs were so important in 2022. So I agree the Giants were not a group of slot-only WRs. But I personally don't love relying on guys like Wan'Dale. Useful player but limited. The type of guy that has a good long career on a bad team, but is a WR4-5 on a good team.

[Acgott]

The end of the Brightwell era.

https://x.com/dan_salomone/status/1796185451641860278?s=61&t=tus03feDbRZ35nlWoHPPOA 

[Acgott]

Slayton got some incentives to report to camp, but no more guranteed.

https://x.com/rydunleavy/status/1796210877516963854?s=61&t=tus03feDbRZ35nlWoHPPOA

[y*so*blu]

There's an ongoing discussion at another forum about whether the Giants are prepping Daniel Jones with the intention of trading him; can we do it, should we do it, would Daboll be willing to do it, etc.

Obviously this is uneconomical, with the dead cap Jones would consume and the extremely limited value he would command in a trade. But eventually we reach a point where the intangible gains--in this case, the team's collective need to move on--outweigh the material losses.

In 1984 Bill Parcells said "if I'm gonna lose, [at least] I'm not gonna lose with those same guys." He was explaining why he'd added 20 new players to the roster and given the starting QB job to Phil Simms over Scott Brunner, who was traded away in the spring.

As I said there, I don't expect Brian Daboll to move on from Daniel Jones in a similar manner. But it will be an incredible relief if he does, and it will inspire a little more confidence in his leadership.

That's where I'm at right now.

[Acgott]

3 hours ago, y*so*blu said:

There's an ongoing discussion at another forum about whether the Giants are prepping Daniel Jones with the intention of trading him; can we do it, should we do it, would Daboll be willing to do it, etc.

Obviously this is uneconomical, with the dead cap Jones would consume and the extremely limited value he would command in a trade. But eventually we reach a point where the intangible gains--in this case, the team's collective need to move on--outweigh the material losses.

In 1984 Bill Parcells said "if I'm gonna lose, [at least] I'm not gonna lose with those same guys." He was explaining why he'd added 20 new players to the roster and given the starting QB job to Phil Simms over Scott Brunner, who was traded away in the spring.

As I said there, I don't expect Brian Daboll to move on from Daniel Jones in a similar manner. But it will be an incredible relief if he does, and it will inspire a little more confidence in his leadership.

That's where I'm at right now.

I had remove the references to another site per forum rules.

It’s not happening for many reasons. Though I believe the Giants would only have to take a $11M dead cap for it this year and next, who ever trades for him would need to accept his $35M base salary. Only two teams have that much cap space in the commanders and patriots, who won’t trade for him. His injury guarantee would be too big of a risk for another team. If a contending team lost their QB it makes more sense for them to trade for the loser of the Steelers or another backup without a gigantic contract.

[Shockwave]

Yea it's just not feasible to trade him this year. Now if he has another 2022 like season then trading him in the offseason next year might be in play. The injury clause only comes into effect if he can't pass a physical next offseason. So as long as he doesn't suffer a major injury at the end of the year it shouldn't be an issue. I suspect if we are out of playoff contention at some point they'll bench him like the Raiders did with Carr. 

I think they are going to ride and die with DJ. Lock seems to be settling into the support role. Can only hope with the addition of Nabers and Hyatt progressing Danny somehow turns a corner and produces at least average NFL type production. But I have my doubts. 

Edited yesterday at 11:18 AM by Shockwave

[minutemancl]

7 hours ago, Shockwave said:

Yea it's just not feasible to trade him this year. Now if he has another 2022 like season then trading him in the offseason next year might be in play. The injury clause only comes into effect if he can't pass a physical next offseason. So as long as he doesn't suffer a major injury at the end of the year it shouldn't be an issue. I suspect if we are out of playoff contention at some point they'll bench him like the Raiders did with Carr. 

I think they are going to ride and die with DJ. Lock seems to be settling into the support role. Can only hope with the addition of Nabers and Hyatt progressing Danny somehow turns a corner and produces at least average NFL type production. But I have my doubts. 

I mean, he was good in 2022 when he was healthy. That was about average NFL QB production. The intention/hopes seem to be that he can get back to 2022 form this year with, hopefully, a better team around him. We'll see!