SteelKing728 Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 On 6/29/2024 at 3:40 PM, Soko said: I mean, Jefferson isn’t really an otherworldly athlete, so that’s not really much of a comparison. He’s got good speed, but he’s not like Jaylen Waddle or Jameson Williams or something. He’s got good hops, but he’s not like CeeDee Lamb or DeAndre Hopkins. He’s quick, but he’s not Tyreek Hill. JJ’s a good athlete but what makes him special is his WR skillet, not his athletic traits. There are probably a couple handfuls of WRs in every draft class that are comparably athletic or more athletic than JJ. That's a nice ratio you got there. Bad takes will do that, ya know? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoboRocket Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 On 6/29/2024 at 4:21 PM, HerbertGOAT said: I think Josh Palmer will have a 1100 yard season by virtue of being one of the only passable options in the offense and then he gets 4 years 100 million from the Panthers and proceed to flame out. Lol or he becomes Christian Kirk 2.0 and is mostly fine but too expensive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted June 30 Share Posted June 30 55 minutes ago, SteelKing728 said: That's a nice ratio you got there. Bad takes will do that, ya know? I’ll ask you the same question that’s gone unanswered. What is Justin Jefferson elite at in terms of athleticism, and how’s that measured? When comparing him to an elite athlete at the position (Hill), what’s he bring to the table? In terms of draft day measurables, not a ton. So what is there? I’m actually curious. I didn’t realize this many people believed Justin Jefferson was some sort of Randy Moss, freak-of-nature athlete. Like, he wasn’t touted as that at any point, so I’m wondering where this came from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 19 hours ago, vike daddy said: three guys go up for this ball, guess who comes down with it? That isn't really athleticism, though. Not in the objective measured way it's being talked about. Like, he doesn't come down with that because he outran them, he's not the guy who jumped highest based on that still image, he's not running over anyone there because he's crazy strong. Like, none of what wins him this play would be in RAS, which is referenced heavily above. This is hand eye coordination, timing, body control, hand strength, etc. That's not what people are generally referring to when they talk about athleticism. That's more skill than it is raw athleticism. This is Larry Fitzgerald or Deandre Hopkins or Jordy Nelson kind of stuff, not Calvin Johnson or Randy Moss. Which is fine, it isn't an insult like it seems like it's being taken as here. But he's not the guy that's getting 99 in speed or acceleration or agility in Madden, for instance. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 15 hours ago, Tank4Drake said: Chase and Jefferson are the two best athletes at WR that are actually good. I thought about writing that in my post but I thought it would be obvious. DK Metcalf is probably my "supreme" WR athlete playing today simply because of the combo of size, strength and speed. While Tyreke Hill has the best acceleration of any player I've ever seen (maybe Barry Sanders is comparable), I don't necessarily seem him similarly because of the lack of size and strength (even though he is strong for his size). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 Julio Jones and Calvin Johnson are probably two good recent examples of truly elite athlete WRs. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 2 hours ago, Soko said: I didn’t realize this many people believed Justin Jefferson was some sort of Randy Moss, freak-of-nature athlete. Like, he wasn’t touted as that at any point, so I’m wondering where this came from. that's quite a bit of straw, man... who has compared Jefferson to Moss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 5 minutes ago, vike daddy said: that's quite a bit of straw, man... who has compared Jefferson to Moss? You haven’t done much of anything aside from post a still shot where A) Jefferson wasn’t even the highest leaper, and B) he didn’t even get all that far off the ground, as seen in the link I provided. So based on the pushback of “Jefferson isn’t a special athlete”, I’m kinda forced to assume that I should be comparing him to a special athlete? Unfortunately, no one’s really been able to tell me why that should be the case, what’s so great about RAS, or what Jefferson actually brings to the table athletically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vike daddy Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 5 minutes ago, Soko said: ...or what Jefferson actually brings to the table athletically. we'll just have to disagree, and i can live with that. normally i very much respect your posts, but i just don't understand your larger point in this convo... i don't understand the argument being made that Jefferson isn't highly skilled, athletically. i mean, isn't there an eye test beyond RAS scores and 40 numbers and how many 225# reps a guy can do? you posit that Jefferson has a varied wide receiver skillset but isn't athletically gifted, compared to his peers. whatever that means... if he wasn't athletically gifted, than why is he outperforming his peers? why does he outjump defenders, sometimes two at a time, even if you feel he isn't that high off the ground? he is excelling at his craft, and in my mind he certainly can't do that without being athletically gifted. but I really don't care, as to me this conversation is just silly. it's akin to a guy winning a Nobel Prize in his field but did poorly on his SAT's, so is he not gifted? but whatever, i enjoy your posting and wish you the best. vd out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 hours ago, Soko said: I’ll ask you the same question that’s gone unanswered. What is Justin Jefferson elite at in terms of athleticism, and how’s that measured? When comparing him to an elite athlete at the position (Hill), what’s he bring to the table? In terms of draft day measurables, not a ton. So what is there? I’m actually curious. I didn’t realize this many people believed Justin Jefferson was some sort of Randy Moss, freak-of-nature athlete. Like, he wasn’t touted as that at any point, so I’m wondering where this came from. I would agree with that completely, Justin Jefferson is not an elite athlete. He wins on his consistent route running, hand eye coordination and short area quickness/burst. He is great at tracking the football and getting slight separation but does not blow people away by any means and is not super physical after the catch either. He is a thin dude but wins on conditioning a lot of the time as well, being able to play at a higher level for longer periods of time. In a race straight forward no way does he take the top off the defense. If he played in a different era where you could hit WRs over the middle, he would be a totally different player because of his thin frame he would get totally lit up and blown up physically. He has put up great stats early in his career but it has not really lead to much in terms of wins. Even the rookie Puka Nacua, that is a great athlete at WR, defenders are afraid to take him on because of his leg drive and toughness, he can take a hit and keep going, great in jump ball situations and has great raw strength when catching the football. That is some toughness but also just pure power and force, especially from a rookie. Just look at Puka on the basketball court, the dude is an athlete. Justin Jefferson does not win on raw power or force and yes really to me being an athlete at say the WR position is about how high do you jump, how strong are you and how fast are you. Really Justin Jefferson does not win on any of those traits. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 5 minutes ago, vike daddy said: we'll just have to disagree, and i can live with that. normally i very much respect your posts, but i just don't understand your larger point in this convo... i don't understand the argument being made that Jefferson isn't highly skilled, athletically. i mean, isn't there an eye test beyond RAS scores and 40 numbers and how many 225# reps a guy can do? Yes, which is why I pushed back on using RAS, but again, no one has even just said “oh he’s a burner”, “he’s a sky walker”, “he’s a bully with the ball”. No one’s really said anything other than just being flabbergasted that Jefferson isn’t being viewed as an elite athlete. Does the eye test put Jefferson in the Waddle type of speed category (who is below the Hill one, fwiw)? I don’t believe it does. Does it put him in the DeAndre Hopkins, Mike Williams tier of pure hops? I don’t think it does. Does it put him in the DK Metcalf, Deebo Samuel tier of bullies? Or the Tyreek Hill group of twitchy players? I don’t think so, but that’s probably Jefferson’s most standout trait, his agility/silky smooth movement. I’m cool with people disagreeing with any of that, but to be frank, I don’t think it’s particularly close in any of those categories. And that’s not really an insult in the slightest, because he, and plenty of the best WRs in the game, aren’t elite athletes either. Lamb isn’t, Adams isn’t, ARSB isn’t. Plenty of others are/were really strong in some of those categories but weaker in others, like AB, Fitz, Hill, DK. Being a great WR hasn’t had a ton of correlation with being an insane athlete, tbh. There are plenty of insanely athletic WRs that bust out every single year. JJ’s special because of his WR skillset + his good athleticism, but the latter isn’t his bread/butter. 5 minutes ago, vike daddy said: you posit that Jefferson has a varied wide receiver skillset but isn't athletically gifted, compared to his peers. whatever that means... if he wasn't athletically gifted, than why is he outperforming his peers? why does he outjump defenders, sometimes two at a time, even if you feel he isn't that high off the ground? he is excelling at his craft, and in my mind he certainly can't do that without being athletically gifted. I didn’t say Jefferson wasn’t athletically gifted, I said he wasn’t special, more specifically referencing other NFL WRs (because obviously in terms of just regular humans, he’s special, as is every player that makes it in the league). And he’s outperforming his peers because he’s better at playing WR than most of them. Not because he’s got game breaking speed, can jump out the gym, or bullies people down field. He’s got good speed. He’s got good hops. He plays strong. But athletically, those guys exist on almost every roster. They’re just not nearly as skilled. In reference to your still shot, it’s not that “I don’t feel he’s that high off the ground”, lol. I sent the video. He isn’t. It was an impressive display of high pointing, catching it in traffic, strong hands, concentration, etc. but it was not an impressive leaping feat. He doesn’t even jump higher than the DB behind him. And yeah, he makes those types of things look easy because he’s an insane WR with amazing ball skills. But he’s not out leaping them for the ball here. Like, the same thing with his amazing catch vs Buffalo. He doesn’t beat the DB because he jumps higher than them, he just displays otherworldly catching ability. These are what it looks like when you beat the DBs with leaping ability (+ obviously all the other stuff that goes into catching): 5 minutes ago, vike daddy said: but I really don't care, as to me this conversation is just silly. it's akin to a guy winning a Nobel Prize in his field but did poorly on his SAT's, so is he not gifted? but whatever, i enjoy your posting and wish you the best. vd out. I think it’s closer to a guy winning a Nobel Prize, and then thinking that that makes him the smartest man in every scientific field. No disrespect, just a conversation. Looking forward to more in the future, no worries. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMcFife Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 "Balance" technically should be considered an "athletic trait" but I think most people consider it something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelKing728 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 2 hours ago, Soko said: You haven’t done much of anything aside from post a still shot where A) Jefferson wasn’t even the highest leaper, and B) he didn’t even get all that far off the ground, as seen in the link I provided. So based on the pushback of “Jefferson isn’t a special athlete”, I’m kinda forced to assume that I should be comparing him to a special athlete? Unfortunately, no one’s really been able to tell me why that should be the case, what’s so great about RAS, or what Jefferson actually brings to the table athletically. I have a feeling that you and Al Davis would be great friends and evaluate WRs the exact same way: H/W/S.b Because it looks like you're saying that since Jefferson isn't the 6'5'', 4.2 40 flat and 230lbs, he's not that great of an athlete. It's the same argument people use for QBs..."but his arm strength". Then refuse to acknowledge that so many QBs with big arms have failed miserably in the NFL, like Jamarcus Russell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 3 hours ago, SteelKing728 said: I have a feeling that you and Al Davis would be great friends and evaluate WRs the exact same way: H/W/S.b Because it looks like you're saying that since Jefferson isn't the 6'5'', 4.2 40 flat and 230lbs, he's not that great of an athlete. It's the same argument people use for QBs..."but his arm strength". Then refuse to acknowledge that so many QBs with big arms have failed miserably in the NFL, like Jamarcus Russell. I have said multiple times now that there are tons of great athletes in the NFL (better than Jefferson) that don’t make it and aren’t as good because of everything Jefferson does as a WR. Ive also said there’s little correlation to being an elite athlete and being a great WR. Pretty consistently been bringing up things outside of HWS. So no, you’re kind of just making things up, friend. Being a special athlete doesn’t make you a special football player, and similarly in Jefferson’s case, the reverse is also true; being a special football player doesn’t automatically make you a special athlete. Your arm strength comment kind of shows that you have a weird concept of this. Having an elite arm doesn’t make you an elite QB, and being an elite QB doesn’t mean you have an elite arm. It appears that you believe because Jefferson is an elite WR, that must mean he’s elite athletically? Still waiting for someone to tell me what Jefferson does as an athlete at an elite level, but at this point I’ll figure that nobody has because nobody can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted July 1 Share Posted July 1 8 hours ago, SteelKing728 said: I have a feeling that you and Al Davis would be great friends and evaluate WRs the exact same way: H/W/S.b Because it looks like you're saying that since Jefferson isn't the 6'5'', 4.2 40 flat and 230lbs, he's not that great of an athlete. It's the same argument people use for QBs..."but his arm strength". Then refuse to acknowledge that so many QBs with big arms have failed miserably in the NFL, like Jamarcus Russell. Can we just reset for a sec? I don't recall @Soko saying that Jefferson is a bad WR. In fact, he's using elite WRs (Hill, Chase, Lamb) as the comparison point. I don't think it's a stretch to say that Jefferson is greater than the sum of his tools. He's got ideal height, weight, speed, leaping ability, etc. It's not PEAK of any of those attributes, but it's also not VALLEY of those attributes either. All things considered, he's got every attribute you'd want in a WR - which is really all you should be looking for, he checks the boxes for what you want all together. What makes Jefferson special is that he can take these attributes and combine them into the picture of an elite WR - he uses each tool to its maximum to be considered the best WR in football. Jefferson is not an elite athlete compared to some of his peers, but is an elite WR compared to his peers. Fair? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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