The good, the bad, the we lost to the panthers

[NCOUGHMAN]

1 hour ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Agreed you can't throw a fit and make 0 changes

Unless he’s powerless lol maybe mark gave Telly full control 

[ronjon1990]

23 minutes ago, Darbsk said:

The trouble with this logic or lack thereof is that every other coach we’ve had over the last 20 years has done the same, with the exception they haven’t beaten the Chiefs and Ravens or teams of that ilk (apart from Gruden that once). That’s why I think he deserves a shot and a fair shot as he’s far from a finished product and raw as can be.

Dont get me wrong, I think it’s a long shot but I was a Harbaugh guy to begin with so have no dog in the fight.

My question is what represents a fair shot? Where is the accountability being placed? 

The OC, that's 100% on him. It was an amateur move that backfired tremendously. 

The game flow is repulsive. That's on him as well. 

The player attitudes and effort, while not 100% on him, are still heavily on him. 

He's raw, he's not a finished product. He's also been a HC longer than a Dave Canales and Mike MacDonald and Jerod Mayo....combined. 

Somewhere, he has to actually show some growth, no? It's his first "full" season, but he was a HC for half of the last NFL season. I think it's more than fair to ask what the heck he learned, because he's still making noob decisions. I wouldn't care if we were 0-3 right now if AP's coaching and decision making were sound and it was an understandable talent issue. 

And that's where so many people are out on him already. He's not even coaching the way he coached his first game, he's somehow regressed in a lot of ways. When people say "fair" shot...gotta wonder what someone sees as fair. 

[ronjon1990]

3 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Unless he’s powerless lol maybe mark gave Telly full control 

Mark secretly gave Getsy full control. Just wait until it comes out. 

Would anyone be surprised? 

[NCOUGHMAN]

14 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

My question is what represents a fair shot? Where is the accountability being placed? 

The OC, that's 100% on him. It was an amateur move that backfired tremendously. 

The game flow is repulsive. That's on him as well. 

The player attitudes and effort, while not 100% on him, are still heavily on him. 

He's raw, he's not a finished product. He's also been a HC longer than a Dave Canales and Mike MacDonald and Jerod Mayo....combined. 

Somewhere, he has to actually show some growth, no? It's his first "full" season, but he was a HC for half of the last NFL season. I think it's more than fair to ask what the heck he learned, because he's still making noob decisions. I wouldn't care if we were 0-3 right now if AP's coaching and decision making were sound and it was an understandable talent issue. 

And that's where so many people are out on him already. He's not even coaching the way he coached his first game, he's somehow regressed in a lot of ways. When people say "fair" shot...gotta wonder what someone sees as fair. 

Fair shot to draft his own qb and build his team the way he wants. New coaches don’t usually get that compared to established ones tho. 2 yrs in a row we slept on qb prospects

[MrOaktown_56]

29 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Unless he’s powerless lol maybe mark gave Telly full control 

Coaching changes being on the GM would be wild?

[big_palooka]

2 hours ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

If offense can’t get it going ap needs to make a business decision on getsy. Too many assistants with better resumes in house 

Joe Philbin, Scott Turner and Scangrello? Anyone else? 

[NCOUGHMAN]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

Joe Philbin, Scott Turner and Scangrello? Anyone else? 

I like Joe there’s Edgar Bennett iirc too

Edited Wednesday at 10:49 PM by NCOUGHMAN

[Styrian Raider]

16 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Which is hard to do when a GM and HC aren't on the same page. 

AP isn't drafting guys or signing FAs. Telesco isn't drawing up or calling plays or impacting in-game decisions. 

If they're not 100% on the same page, and I believe they're not (whether by choice or by nature), bad results are certain. 

Band Aid jobs like ours aren't good for immediate future results. It's why GM+HC is almost a package deal nowadays. Forcing two guys together with different philosophies and tendencies probably means whatever the stated plan from one guy may be, the other is probably sabotaging it without necessarily meaning to.

Whether AP and Telesco like each other or want the other to succeed isn't the issue, obviously. I don't want it to sound as if one is purposefully trying to stab the other in the back for some nefarious reason. No doubt they both wanna do well.

Absolutely. They don't have to agree on all topics but they have to make decisions where both are happy with and are beneficial for the raiders organization - not only their jobs.
 

16 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

But our staff is such a jumbled mess of varying philosophies I'm not really surprised it's dysfunctional. Was it you that brought up Edgar Bennett somehow "fitting" into all these varying schemes over the last few years? That was a good point.

Looking around the staff- we have experience, lots of it, and each one has plenty of good to bring on their own. But Joe Philbin, Scott Turner, Edgar Bennett, Cadillac Williams altogether working on a Luke Getsy scheme? Anyone know of a common coaching thread there? 

Defense I think is a little less muddled, but Graham and Ryan? With Marvin Lewis hanging around? Yeah, there's surely A LOT of ideas and experience there, but a cohesive plan that isn't stepping on it's own toes due to schematic and tendency differences? 

With such a mishmash of styles, I fear the only coherent plan we actually have will be broad stroke things like "Old school Raiders"- slogans with little substance. 

It was indeed me that brought up Edgar Bennett. It's not like that I want him to be fired or so, but I was just wondering how it is possible that he "survived" 3 different HCs, GMs, philosophies or whatever we wanna call it.
IMHO if I have a vision how I want to play, the next steps are, how I find the players for that and how I develop players to be the best they can be.
For the latter it doesn't mean that every coach comes from the same coaching tree, but rather that they are good in that categories I want my foucs on.

for example (sorry that I use always the run scheme as example) if I decided I want a dominant run game, with a wide zone run scheme, the next thing after the players for that is, who can develop my guys the best for that scheme.
same as with players: The best power/gap run coach doesn't have to be the best coach for a zone scheme.

That's my initial thought why I brought up Bennett.

I think if you're doing your job right with the coaching staff you can start "printing" compensatory picks like the Niners do.

 

[Darbsk]

On 9/25/2024 at 8:26 PM, ronjon1990 said:

My question is what represents a fair shot? Where is the accountability being placed? 

The OC, that's 100% on him. It was an amateur move that backfired tremendously. 

The game flow is repulsive. That's on him as well. 

The player attitudes and effort, while not 100% on him, are still heavily on him. 

He's raw, he's not a finished product. He's also been a HC longer than a Dave Canales and Mike MacDonald and Jerod Mayo....combined. 

Somewhere, he has to actually show some growth, no? It's his first "full" season, but he was a HC for half of the last NFL season. I think it's more than fair to ask what the heck he learned, because he's still making noob decisions. I wouldn't care if we were 0-3 right now if AP's coaching and decision making were sound and it was an understandable talent issue. 

And that's where so many people are out on him already. He's not even coaching the way he coached his first game, he's somehow regressed in a lot of ways. When people say "fair" shot...gotta wonder what someone sees as fair. 

i) I don’t think we can say definitively on the OC yet, simply too early. I know some have a bias or have preconceived opinions, but I cannot judge yet, it’s been 3 games with Gardner Minshew at QB for goodness sake.

ii) Game flow, not really sure what you mean there. If you mean where and when to be aggressive or defensive I agree.

iii) Attitudes have generally been great I think. Penalties are down across the board but they did have a bad day against the Panthers. We’ve seen this many times before, let’s see how they respond before we chuck the baby out with the bath water.

iv) And it’s too early to judge any of them! Let them all develop for a bit, some flash immediately like Pierce did, some slow cook and some are fools gold.

v) Agree, he has to show this season improvement in time management, game nuance and strategy, making adjustments. 

vi) Each of us will have a different barometer of course. I would like to see a whole season of evidence. Last year was a difficult one to judge. He was thrown right in at the deep end with a rookie OC and other guts he didn’t pick, he also, I feel was able to ride a wave of feel good after replacing McDaniels. The waters are too muddied for me personally. As you rightly say, this year he’s made his choices of co-ordinaries, had input in draft picks and free agents etc. this year it’s fair to judge I think.

[ronjon1990]

1 minute ago, Darbsk said:

i) I don’t think we can say definitively on the OC yet, simply too early. I know some have a bias or have preconceived opinions, but I cannot judge yet, it’s been 3 games with Gardner Minshew at QB for goodness sake.

ii) Game flow, not really sure what you mean there. If you mean where and when to be aggressive or defensive I agree.

iii) Attitudes have generally been great I think. Penalties are down across the board but they did have a bad day against the Panthers. We’ve seen this many times before, let’s see how they respond before we chuck the baby out with the bath water.

iv) And it’s too early to judge any of them! Let them all develop for a bit, some flash immediately like Pierce did, some slow cook and some are fools gold.

v) Agree, he has to show this season improvement in time management, game nuance and strategy, making adjustments. 

vi) Each of us will have a different barometer of course. I would like to see a whole season of evidence. Last year was a difficult one to judge. He was thrown right in at the deep end with a rookie OC and other guts he didn’t pick, he also, I feel was able to ride a wave of feel good after replacing McDaniels. The waters are too muddied for me personally. As you rightly say, this year he’s made his choices of co-ordinaries, had input in draft picks and free agents etc. this year it’s fair to judge I think.

I. OC doesn't look good, especially considering the process. I can agree that it's only been 3 games. However, if Getsy gets fired, that's a bad look for AP given he sat on his hands about finding one to start with. 

II. Yep, same page. 

III. I was speaking more to reaction and body language. Compared to how things were last year when AP first took over, a lot of the guys have the same look they had under McDaniels- where the fun is gone and reality is setting in that they're losing. As for the effort, AP's talk about "business decisions". Dude has to have a better control of the locker room. Can't pretend to be a rat rah guy if your rah rah isn't even rah rahing....

IV & V go together. Gotta actually show some incremental improvement. Making the same poor decisions as cited in II. ain't it. 

VI. Yep. I'm not demanding X-number of wins. I didn't demand a number from McDaniels either until his long lost kid pressed for it, and when I did, it was a generously low number. There's something to be said about going 2-15 with 10 losses by a FG or less being more impressive than 8-9 with 8 ugly wins 3 close losses and 6 absolute blowouts. Unless someone unrealistically expected 10+ wins this year, the W/L column matters not. Heck, he can purposefully blow leads by putting Carlson in at QB and lining Nesta up as the primary WR if he wants to so we can establish draft position, but show me during the majority of  game this could've been won before you consciously tank it. So far, it's looked more like we're lost than actively tanking. To me, at least. 

[bucksavage1]

On 9/24/2024 at 7:43 PM, RaiderX said:

Just noticed he leads all tackles in sacks allowed with 5. Counter part is he's committed 0 penalties.

For those who been watching Raiders for a couple decades now, fascinating how little AP teams get penalized 

[NYRaider]

On 9/25/2024 at 11:31 AM, big_palooka said:

 

 

I told you Getsy's run scheme is mid, Fields bailed him out creating something out of nothing.

 

[big_palooka]

11 hours ago, NYRaider said:

I told you Getsy's run scheme is mid, Fields bailed him out creating something out of nothing.

Not trying to defend Getsy here, but Herbert averaged 4.6 and Johnson 4.3 per carry. The running game was successful which is why AP hired him. 

The issue is setting up the offense to let your best players succeed. White is getting chunks on gap plays but Getsy is calling to much outside zone and stretch. White, nor Mattison are zone guys. 

I would not be surprised to see them run more gap runs Sunday.