ThatJerkDave Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said: Sure, but he's been Mr. Regular Season for far too long. Is the solution to simply jettison him because he is a loser and won't win? What I am looking for is a little bit of nuance. There is a way for the Packers to win with Rodgers. There is a way for the Packers to win without Rodgers. It has been months now, with as strong an anti-Rodgers crowd as a Rodgers can do no wrong crowd. Both sides of that are tedious. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: We scored 10 points against a good defense with Rodgers when it mattered. What's your point? That to say Aaron only won MVP because it's a QB award makes you a moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 2 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: That to say Aaron only won MVP because it's a QB award makes you a moron. I think that's a discussion of the merits and criteria of the MVP award. If the definition of the award is "What player most exceeded the average performance of his position?" it probably should have been Watt. If the definition of the award is "What player is most valuable to his team?" It should only be QBs, and QBs without a good backup should be eliminated from contention. But none of these definitions are true, because the definition changes year to year in order to fit a narrative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 51 minutes ago, Striker said: I'd bet you'd see similar results if you removed the #1 QB from most teams in the league midweek, draw up a ****ty gameplan, and started the backup on the road. Plus it really is a QB award considering the last non-QB to get it was Peterson in 2012 and before him was LT in 2006 and then Alexander in 2005. And all they had to do was set NFL records or come juuuuuust short of NFL records. That's because QBs are far and away the most valuable position in the sport. We just won 13 games without our best LT, CB and EDGE, we're 7-0 without our best WR. The Rams would've still probably made the SB if you give them Robert Woods and take out Kupp with an injury. A non QB won't win the award again unless we make it much tougher to throw the ball and bring a greater balance back to NFL offenses. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fistfullofbeer Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 3 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said: Is the solution to simply jettison him because he is a loser and won't win? What I am looking for is a little bit of nuance. There is a way for the Packers to win with Rodgers. There is a way for the Packers to win without Rodgers. It has been months now, with as strong an anti-Rodgers crowd as a Rodgers can do no wrong crowd. Both sides of that are tedious. I think it is a confidence issue with Rodgers at this point. Do people have enough confidence that Rodgers can win us a game against strong defenses in the playoffs? Recent playoff history does not help instil confidence that he can do that. He can be counted on to be a great game manager and not lose games but that's it. The only way he can prove his doubters wrong is by actually winning such games. Problem is that time/age is not on his side and he makes way too much to just be a game manager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{Family Ghost} Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 4 minutes ago, ThatJerkDave said: Is the solution to simply jettison him because he is a loser and won't win? What I am looking for is a little bit of nuance. There is a way for the Packers to win with Rodgers. There is a way for the Packers to win without Rodgers. It has been months now, with as strong an anti-Rodgers crowd as a Rodgers can do no wrong crowd. Both sides of that are tedious. I think you deal him because he's a not worth the hassle if he's not delivering Lombardi's. He's had a decade to deliver and it hasn't happened. He's become bigger than the game, and I'd rather see the Packers allocate the resources differently and see them try to win with a QB on a rookie deal while using the draft pick ammo to bolster Oline, Dline, etc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 6 minutes ago, fistfullofbeer said: I think it is a confidence issue with Rodgers at this point. Do people have enough confidence that Rodgers can win us a game against strong defenses in the playoffs? Recent playoff history does not help instil confidence that he can do that. He can be counted on to be a great game manager and not lose games but that's it. The only way he can prove his doubters wrong is by actually winning such games. Problem is that time/age is not on his side and he makes way too much to just be a game manager. I think the "game manager" argument is invalid with someone who has proven he can go out and win games. He's the MVP and deservedly so. The issue most people have with him is they're seeing that he hasn't taken us to the super bowl in recent seasons, so they are coming to a conclusion that he can't take us to one. This is the fallacy in my opinion. Just because you flipped a coin tails a few times in a row doesn't mean it's more likely to flip tails than heads. I understand there are more variables to consider here than with a coin flip, but the root of the argument remains valid. I lived in New England for a long time. After winning 3 SBs, the pats went about a decade before winning again. I can tell you, people were turning on Brady and BB there too. We all know how that ended. Edited February 24, 2022 by Sandy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Packerraymond Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 9 minutes ago, AlexGreen#20 said: I think that's a discussion of the merits and criteria of the MVP award. If the definition of the award is "What player most exceeded the average performance of his position?" it probably should have been Watt. If the definition of the award is "What player is most valuable to his team?" It should only be QBs, and QBs without a good backup should be eliminated from contention. But none of these definitions are true, because the definition changes year to year in order to fit a narrative. My definition, stealing baseball terms, would be what player in the league gave his team the most wins above an average level player at their position. It's always going to be a QB and then you level out everyone's backup into the generic "average" player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
15412 Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 Rodg hasn't failed in post season in recent history, he has failed in long term history. But that's not the only consideration. He is not going to be 32 years old, he is going to be 39. His physical skills are not going to improve. More important is the cap. In a league where there was no cap it would be different, but there is. How far do we want to mortgage this teams future, how far do we want to gut this team to bring him back? A guy who is 1-4 in NFC Championship games, 0-7 in the playoffs when behind at half time, 0-4 vs. the 49'ers in post season (a team he "had it in for ") and hasn't got us to the big game in about a dozen years? Again, if age and cap weren't involved in the discussion then sure you'd bring him back. But they are. This wasn't the Green Bay Favre's and it isn't the Green Bay Jolly Rodgers. The only way it makes sense to bring him back is on the teams terms. A discounted team friendly contract and cutting all players that shouldn't be here. Including ol Rdog's special "friends". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old Guy Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 36 minutes ago, Sandy said: I really do respect the opinion of getting high draft picks to try and make the next great Packers team, but for me it comes down to the ol' 'bird in the hand' adage. We have that next great Packers team here, right now. We don't know if we'll have that with Love, and if any of those draft picks will pan out. Trading star players for multiple first rounders has never worked out except the Tunsil trade in Miami - which is still playing out and could fail as well. I'd rather we go for it with our short window now than march into the unknown. You don't know that for sure. The team we had this year will not be the same as next year. No way we can keep everybody. All the one score games we won this year defies the term, 'next great Packers team.' This team, you speak of could easily go 9-8 next year. Worse, we keep kicking the salary cap situation down the road when we do that. That insures we are going to suck once Rodgers retires because there won't be the money to dip into free agency, much less the draft capital to fill holes quickly like a trade would do. The Herschel Walker trade worked out quite well for Dallas. The John Hadl trade worked out well for the Rams. There are countless trades that worked out well for the team receiving the draft picks. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 42 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said: Sure, but he's been Mr. Regular Season for far too long. If we're going to go there though, we also have to look at the fact that LaFleur has been Mr. Regular Season as well. He goes full blown conservative for some reason. Edited February 24, 2022 by packfanfb 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{Family Ghost} Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 18 minutes ago, Sandy said: I think the "game manager" argument is invalid with someone who has proven he can go out and win games. He's the MVP and deservedly so. The issue most people have with him is they're seeing that he hasn't taken us to the super bowl in recent seasons, so they are coming to a conclusion that he can't take us to one. This is the fallacy in my opinion. Just because you flipped a coin tails a few times in a row doesn't mean it's more likely to flip tails than heads. I understand there are more variables to consider here than with a coin flip, but the root of the argument remains valid. I lived in New England for a long time. After winning 3 SBs, the pats went about a decade before winning again. I can tell you, people were turning on Brady and BB there too. We all know how that ended. The difference is that Brady is all about winning all of the time, and BB is a far better coach than LaFleur. It's possible Rodgers and the Packers catch lightning in a bottle and win it all, but I don't think the odds are very good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
{Family Ghost} Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 3 minutes ago, packfanfb said: If we're going to go there though, we also have to look at the fact that LaFleur has been Mr. Regular Season as well. He goes full blown conservative for some reason. I don't disagree ... I want to see LaFleur have to stand on his own two feet without the help of Mr. Regular Season at QB. Edited February 24, 2022 by {Family Ghost} Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Packerraymond said: My definition, stealing baseball terms, would be what player in the league gave his team the most wins above an average level player at their position. It's always going to be a QB and then you level out everyone's backup into the generic "average" player. Yea, I mean it's QB and it's really not close after that. The Packers are a perfect case study. We played the entire year without 2 of our top 5 players, both at premium positions and won 13 games. We're the same way without Adams, arguably the No. 2 player on our team. Without Rodgers, you're not approaching that win total even with every other single player not missing a game. It's not hard to comprehend that he's the most "valuable" player on our team (by far), which is true for most top QBs. From there, you're basically just comparing the stats of those 4-5 guys to determine the league MVP. Edited February 24, 2022 by packfanfb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maverick Posted February 24, 2022 Share Posted February 24, 2022 (edited) 11 minutes ago, {Family Ghost} said: I don't disagree ... I want to see LaFleur have to stand on his own two feet without the help of Mr. Regular Season at QB. We did. The guru put up a monstrous 7 points and kept throwing the ball despite the run game working quite well. Edited February 24, 2022 by Maverick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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