RuskieTitan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, bucsfan333 said: I agree with Ruskie. And I feel all icky. I don't blame you but the truth only comes out one color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, RuskieTitan said: So what you are saying is that you took a risk in drafting players coming off their rookie seasons and showing great promise highly in the first round, knowing full well that the grading system is based off the past 3 years of production and that it would likely take 2 or maybe even 3 seasons to show up at an elite level, and now you want to not be punished for having made that gamble. Lol wut. I picked both Dak and Thomas under the assumption that they could play 7 games and still be tagged at one tag. The new rookie rule means that’s no longer the case for anyone who carries a rookie in addition to the unknowns. But no, I was pointing out another example where the Harper rule applies that it probably shouldn’t be so harsh. It’s in addition to the Watt situation, another example where draconian rules can hurt a team’s ability to do things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskieTitan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 2 minutes ago, iPwn said: Lol wut. I picked both Dak and Thomas under the assumption that they could play 7 games and still be tagged at one tag. The new rookie rule means that’s no longer the case for anyone who carries a rookie in addition to the unknowns. But no, I was pointing out another example where the Harper rule applies that it probably shouldn’t be so harsh. It’s in addition to the Watt situation, another example where draconian rules can hurt a team’s ability to do things. Again, the practice squad was created as an afterthought. Initially it was just 3 PS slots, mostly intended for teams to shift around players as they felt the need, and position groups were more clumped together (defensive line together, linebackers together). The whole point of the league was to compete for the championship that season. Then it expanded to 5 PS players, but again, for the most part it's about competing that current season. Some owners started to utilize PS to carry over talent to the next season, but that is creating more of a 'dynasty' approach, where you are concerned not necessarily all about the upcoming season, but also planning for the future. With the recent rookie changes, that dynamic has shifted even further to incentivize owners trying to gamble on elite talent before it emerges on the field. Used to be you had to wait for rookies in the last first / early second (and later) to actually show up their rookie season before any team bothered to draft him. Now? A lot more rookies in the early rounds, and going forward I would expect it to trend more in that direction. I got Carr as an afterthought in the 15th round IIRC, largely because I knew he had a strong chance at winning the starting job in Oakland and has a slight chance of being good. If these current rules were setup and in-place back then, I'm fairly certain someone looking at the draft board and seeing a young QB who just got taken at the top of the 2nd round by his team with no noteworthy veteran to beat would be taken far earlier. We are already seeing a shift with teams trading high picks for young quarterbacks who may have briefly flashed potential. Teams will just start drafting guys before they take a snap in hopes of either locking up the future or avoiding having to pay heavily after 1 season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodder Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 hours ago, bucsfan333 said: @khodder and @Gmen4ev, wanna play preseason games? Neutral sites are fine with me. If available still. Yes. @RuskieTitan preseason beatdown neutral venue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 4 minutes ago, RuskieTitan said: Again, the practice squad was created as an afterthought. Initially it was just 3 PS slots, mostly intended for teams to shift around players as they felt the need, and position groups were more clumped together (defensive line together, linebackers together). The whole point of the league was to compete for the championship that season. Then it expanded to 5 PS players, but again, for the most part it's about competing that current season. Some owners started to utilize PS to carry over talent to the next season, but that is creating more of a 'dynasty' approach, where you are concerned not necessarily all about the upcoming season, but also planning for the future. With the recent rookie changes, that dynamic has shifted even further to incentivize owners trying to gamble on elite talent before it emerges on the field. Used to be you had to wait for rookies in the last first / early second (and later) to actually show up their rookie season before any team bothered to draft him. Now? A lot more rookies in the early rounds, and going forward I would expect it to trend more in that direction. I got Carr as an afterthought in the 15th round IIRC, largely because I knew he had a strong chance at winning the starting job in Oakland and has a slight chance of being good. If these current rules were setup and in-place back then, I'm fairly certain someone looking at the draft board and seeing a young QB who just got taken at the top of the 2nd round by his team with no noteworthy veteran to beat would be taken far earlier. We are already seeing a shift with teams trading high picks for young quarterbacks who may have briefly flashed potential. Teams will just start drafting guys before they take a snap in hopes of either locking up the future or avoiding having to pay heavily after 1 season. Thanks for the history lesson that isn’t really relevant at all. Things changed. The league has evolved. They’ll continue to change and evolve. The wheel ever turns. Just because it used to not be a certain way doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t continue to progress. The Harper rule was added as a heavy-fisted means to thwart obvious manipulation by an owner who was more interested in finding every loophole to squeeze as much out of the league as he could. It worked absolutely great to stop that. But the rule has also caught up others who want to make very obvious changes to their team that now can only do by taking on a long term penalty. If you think my example with Dak and Thomas shouldn’t be the way I see it, that’s fine. If you think Watt should cost Flux 3 tags as a 4-3 DT or 3-4 DE, fine. But we should at least have it up for discussion as the cases come up rather than simply chanting “that’s the way it used to be, it shouldn’t change”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskieTitan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 7 minutes ago, khodder said: If available still. Yes. @RuskieTitan preseason beatdown neutral venue? Works for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodder Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 4 hours ago, TheKillerNacho said: lol Honestly I think he wanted to finish a trade that involved Donald. I'm going to show a bit of leniency and extend the deadline to midnight... I'm sorry but that's crap. There is absolutely no reason for him to not tag Donald trade or not. Guy forgot to keep his best player and we just let it roll. If this is the way we are going to go on deadlines what is the point in even having them? Does anybody actually think Rammy was actually entertaining a trade involving Donald?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scalamania Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, khodder said: I'm sorry but that's crap. There is absolutely no reason for him to not tag Donald trade or not. Guy forgot to keep his best player and we just let it roll. If this is the way we are going to go on deadlines what is the point in even having them? Does anybody actually think Rammy was actually entertaining a trade involving Donald?? How do you think I feel? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodder Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 To expand. No issues with extending a deadline that is the prerogative of Nacho. But extend it specifically because one owner has forgotten to tag a player, that's something I'd have issue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
khodder Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 Going back to past offseasons. I'd been looking to trade both Sherman and Wilson for a while, at not stage was either untagged, I knew if I couldn't trade if want to keep them. So they stayed tagged. Post trade there is always the opportunity reallocate tags if necessary. I mean it's a question nacho asks post every trade that involves a tagged player pre draft. I mean at the end of the day Rammy is still going to have a crap team go 8-8 but it's an interesting precedent to set. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 3 minutes ago, khodder said: To expand. No issues with extending a deadline that is the prerogative of Nacho. But extend it specifically because one owner has forgotten to tag a player, that's something I'd have issue with. I agree on this. Specifically because it was extended for Rammy, but then it was revoked when Rammy got his switch in, despite the fact that an extension probably helps @steelcurtain29 fix his keeper situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyMossIsBoss Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 I'd say strip him of his 1st round pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskieTitan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 5 minutes ago, iPwn said: Thanks for the history lesson that isn’t really relevant at all. Things changed. The league has evolved. They’ll continue to change and evolve. The wheel ever turns. Just because it used to not be a certain way doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t continue to progress. The Harper rule was added as a heavy-fisted means to thwart obvious manipulation by an owner who was more interested in finding every loophole to squeeze as much out of the league as he could. It worked absolutely great to stop that. But the rule has also caught up others who want to make very obvious changes to their team that now can only do by taking on a long term penalty. If you think my example with Dak and Thomas shouldn’t be the way I see it, that’s fine. If you think Watt should cost Flux 3 tags as a 4-3 DT or 3-4 DE, fine. But we should at least have it up for discussion as the cases come up rather than simply chanting “that’s the way it used to be, it shouldn’t change”. If it ain't broke... Your example with Dak, Thomas, and Fournette is your decision to use three very high first round picks on players who you are banking on continuing to develop as top tier talent in the NFL. That's a choice you made. You could have taken one of the veterans at those positions for immediate help, but you chose to take players early to lock them up for what they could become 2-3 years down the line. Dak Prescott [7 GS]: 131/204 (64.22%, 94.55 Rating) for 1,687 yards, 9 touchdowns, 5 interceptions. 34 carries for 245 yards (7.21 YPC, 18 LNG), 2 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. Tony Romo [7 GS]: 162/256 (63.28%, 91.02 Rating) for 1,924 yards, 10 touchdowns, 5 interceptions. 10 carries for 15 yards (1.50 YPC, 8 LNG), 0 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. Joe Flacco [16 GS]: 356/586 (60.75%, 88.42 Rating) for 4,542 yards, 26 touchdowns, 16 interceptions. 21 carries for 64 yards (3.05 YPC, 12 LNG), 0 touchdowns, 5 fumbles. Michael Thomas Jr. [7 GS]: 26 receptions for 332 yards (12.77 YPR, 34 LNG), 0 touchdowns, 2 drops. Julian Edelman [16 GS]: 100 receptions for 1,225 yards (12.25 YPR, 30 LNG), 8 touchdowns, 5 drops, 3 fumbles. Doug Baldwin [16 GS]: 88 receptions for 1,103 yards (12.53 YPR, 38 LNG), 11 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. Those were the top 3 picks in that draft for those two positions, and the results of the season. You want to risk for the future, by all means, go for it, but why should the rules be changed to benefit a team such as yourself with young talent? Dak didn't appear too poorly in comparison to the other two, but you certainly could have gotten a better immediate receiver (and Baldwin is still very viable). Jay Ajayi [16 GS]: 379 carries for 1,733 yards (4.57 YPC, 43 LNG), 9 touchdowns, 5 fumbles. 23 receptions for 246 yards (10.70 YPR, 21 LNG), 1 touchdown, 5 drops, 1 fumble. Lamar Miller [16 GS]: 302 carries for 1,329 yards (4.40 YPC, 34 LNG), 4 touchdowns, 3 fumbles. 16 receptions for 187 yards (11.69 YPR, 44 LNG), 2 touchdowns, 3 drops. Leonard Fournette [16 GS]: 321 carries for 1,380 yards (4.30 YPC, 39 LNG), 15 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. 17 receptions for 167 yards (9.82 YPR, 21 LNG), 0 touchdowns, 2 drops. Christian McCaffrey [16 GS]: 235 carries for 990 yards (4.21 YPC, 36 LNG), 8 touchdowns, 3 fumbles. 24 receptions for 281 yards (11.71 YPR, 30 LNG), 1 touchdown, 4 drops. Dalvin Cook [16 GS]: 288 carries for 1,031 yards (3.58 YPC, 17 LNG), 7 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. 29 receptions for 370 yards (12.76 YPR, 30 LNG), 4 touchdowns, 5 drops. Carlos Hyde [16 GS]: 278 carries for 1,236 yards (4.45 YPC, 24 LNG), 6 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. 17 receptions for 158 yards (9.29 YPR, 22 LNG), 1 touchdown. Marshawn Lynch [16 GS]: 301 carries for 1,339 yards (4.45 YPC, 33 LNG), 10 touchdowns, 2 fumbles. 30 receptions for 263 yards (8.77 YPR, 17 LNG), 3 touchdowns, 3 drops, 1 fumble. This is the exact draft order of running backs last season. Every single veteran outproduced the rookies in terms of pure ypc. And depending on what you were looking for in your team, the immediate contributor would have been a veteran (though Fournette thrived getting into the endzone, and Cook was a good receiver). However, going into this season, looking at it from a keeper perspective, you could make a case that all those rookies listed would be drafted ahead of those veterans in this year's draft. This is a prime example of having drafted youth in hopes of a better future. And now with the rookie scale, you can continue to utilize Fournette all 16 games, and only need to pay 1 tag for it! And yet you are still complaining that you don't have an opportunity to know what your players are capable. If you are interested in long term franchise management, I can recommend you take a look at the BDL league as that appears to be more in line with what you want out of drafting young players. As far as JJ Watt is concerned, IMO 3-4 DEs and 4-3 DTs are interchangeable. If someone shifted Watt to utilize him as a 4-3 DE to pass rush more, then they should pay the keeper price. It sort of stinks for Flux in the sense that he didn't have a hand in that initial decision, but as Nacho pointed out, once a player gets 'paid' a certain keeper level, they want to continue to get paid that level. And again, this is a very specific situation for one particular player. 99% of the league does not require any sort of discussion about this, as we all understand the rules and there's minimal or no owner turnover. I just don't see why we should be changing how things are done simply to account for the periodic 1% difference. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskieTitan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 10 minutes ago, iPwn said: 15 minutes ago, khodder said: To expand. No issues with extending a deadline that is the prerogative of Nacho. But extend it specifically because one owner has forgotten to tag a player, that's something I'd have issue with. I agree on this. Specifically because it was extended for Rammy, but then it was revoked when Rammy got his switch in, despite the fact that an extension probably helps @steelcurtain29 fix his keeper situation. There is literally no reason every single owner can't come in the moment Nacho notified them this thread was up for the current season, and set their keepers right then and there. You can always change them before the deadline and make trades, but you won't end up missing any deadlines or holding the league up. It was weeks ago that Nacho notified us of the thread and the deadlines were posted. The one owner who still hasn't done his and another who missed a player on his roster are mistakes that those owners need to live with. If they didn't like it, they had plenty of time like the rest of us to have that in. If it wasn't Aaron Donald, I don't think Nacho would have made that comment with regards to Rammy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuskieTitan Posted February 5, 2018 Share Posted February 5, 2018 22 minutes ago, Remixxxxxxx said: How do you think I feel? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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