IDOG_det Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: And how good has he been since he came into the league? Shazier was one of the best LB's in the league and was one of the most important players on the Steelers defense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Kip Smithers said: And how good has he been since he came into the league? I see you're still ignoring the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, jrry32 said: I see you're still ignoring the point. I think his point might be Ryan Shazier is by far one of the best linebackers in the NFL and he is not huge in size either, and was never great at getting off blocks and handling offensive lineman one on one in college. Yet who gives a crap, he gets to the football with speed and has amazing athletic ability. Roquan Smith is not the same level of athlete but could arguably be just as effective as a linebacker who can get to the football with force and quickness. Some are painting him as a prospect that completely avoids contact at all times, kid is tough and can get through the wash quite well at times. You think Alec Ogletree is great at getting off blocks? Or Mark Barron is for that matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ozzy said: I think his point might be Ryan Shazier is by far one of the best linebackers in the NFL and he is not huge in size either, and was never great at getting off blocks and handling offensive lineman one on one in college. Yet who gives a crap, he gets to the football with speed and has amazing athletic ability. Roquan Smith is not the same level of athlete but could arguably be just as effective as a linebacker who can get to the football with force and quickness. Some are painting him as a prospect that completely avoids contact at all times, kid is tough and can get through the wash quite well at times. See my earlier point: 2 hours ago, jrry32 said: My assessment of Roquan is spot on. The Rams need someone who can play downhill in the running game. We don't need a Will. That's why it seems like I'm not high on Roquan. He doesn't fit what the position we need to fill. If I were a team that needed a rangy Will who can make plays sideline to sideline, I'd be very interested in Roquan. Quote You think Alec Ogletree is great at getting off blocks? Or Mark Barron is for that matter? No, that's precisely why we're likely going to cut Mark Barron this off-season despite the fact that he's actually a good LB. We consistently got gashed up the middle last year because neither of our LBs could defeat blockers or fill gaps well. That's the point I have made throughout this thread. Roquan Smith is limited. His value will depend on what each team needs. His value to the Rams is not high. Ogletree is here to stay. We need someone next to him who can attack downhill, fill gaps, and stack and shed blocks. His value to another team that needs an athletic and rangy LB to play sideline to sideline and cover HBs will obviously be high. Stating that stacking and shedding blocks is "overrated" is a worthless statement. It's generally rated properly. To a team that needs a chase LB, it's not rated highly. To a team that needs a LB who can defeat blocks and play downhill, it is rated highly. For example, do you think it would be a good idea for the Steelers to play Roquan and Shazier next to each other? No. Vince Williams is a great fit in that role next to Shazier because he frees Shazier up to play the way he needs to play (hopefully, he'll be able to do that again). The point myself and others have made is that Roquan has limitations. Those limitations won't stop him from being successful, but they will limit where he fits in the NFL and what teams will be interested in him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 7 minutes ago, jrry32 said: See my earlier point: No, that's precisely why we're likely going to cut Mark Barron this off-season despite the fact that he's actually a good LB. We consistently got gashed up the middle last year because neither of our LBs could defeat blockers or fill gaps well. That's the point I have made throughout this thread. Roquan Smith is limited. His value will depend on what each team needs. His value to the Rams is not high. Ogletree is here to stay. We need someone next to him who can attack downhill, fill gaps, and stack and shed blocks. His value to another team that needs an athletic and rangy LB to play sideline to sideline and cover HBs will obviously be high. Stating that stacking and shedding blocks is "overrated" is a worthless statement. It's generally rated properly. To a team that needs a chase LB, it's not rated highly. To a team that needs a LB who can defeat blocks and play downhill, it is rated highly. For example, do you think it would be a good idea for the Steelers to play Roquan and Shazier next to each other? No. Vince Williams is a great fit in that role next to Shazier because he frees Shazier up to play the way he needs to play (hopefully, he'll be able to do that again). The point myself and others have made is that Roquan has limitations. Those limitations won't stop him from being successful, but they will limit where he fits in the NFL and what teams will be interested in him. Ummm Vince Williams is a good fit with Ryan Shazier? You do know that Shazier and Lawrence Timmons played together both ILBs and both were great. Vince Williams is an ok fit and had the best year of his career, but in no way is Lawrence Timmons good. Both Timmons and Shazier were athletic freaks at linebacker in college, Timmons showed a little more pass rush skills at FSU but still both were athletic freaks and were not ideal at getting off blocks. Timmons improved greatly at that since he got to the NFL, along with getting stronger in general. Same can be said for Karlos Dansby former safety in college and transitioned to linebacker. Guy is a damn good tackler and improved a lot at the point of attack when getting blocked compared to this thin athletic kid in college. Even Ogletree has improved in that part of his game compared to what he was in college. The fact the Rams have Ogletree who is this athletic freak in college, that does not mean teaming him up with another athletic linebacker at the opposite ILB spot is not a good idea. Or they could improve that 3/4 OLB spot and have a more solid guy at the point of attack there and allow the ILBs to flow a little more freely. But like most defenses it is multiple and it changes and guys move around. If you want this classic run stopping ILB on the Rams that is just great at shedding blocks, good luck with that one. Not many guys in this day and age fit that bill, especially with how offenses are played. Micah Kiser was wildly productive in college but is athletically limited, Tegray Scales I had high hopes for this year; still is a strong linebacker and could be a good 3/4 ILB potentially, Jack Cichy is very tough but see how he is off injury, Shaun Dion Hamilton is strong and quick but also is off injury and Kenny Young out of them all had to really get off blocks and had little to no help around him. Might be the only one who can make plays despite being blocked consistently. Then again could say if one is blocked consistently, you lack some athletic ability to get around the blocker, thus back to the Shazier comment who cares about how he sheds blocks if he is quick enough to get around them consistently. There is a reason Kenny Young for example gets blocked more often than some other linebackers, aka Roquan Smith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 6 minutes ago, Ozzy said: Ummm Vince Williams is a good fit with Ryan Shazier? You do know that Shazier and Lawrence Timmons played together both ILBs and both were great. Vince Williams is an ok fit and had the best year of his career, but in no way is Lawrence Timmons good. Both Timmons and Shazier were athletic freaks at linebacker in college, Timmons showed a little more pass rush skills at FSU but still both were athletic freaks and were not ideal at getting off blocks. Yes, Vince Williams is a good fit with Ryan Shazier, and that's why Pittsburgh let Timmons go. Timmons was a versatile player who was capable of playing either ILB spot, but at this point in his career, Williams was a better Buck LB than Timmons. That allowed Shazier to excel as the Mack. Quote Timmons improved greatly at that since he got to the NFL, along with getting stronger in general. Same can be said for Karlos Dansby former safety in college and transitioned to linebacker. Guy is a damn good tackler and improved a lot at the point of attack when getting blocked compared to this thin athletic kid in college. Even Ogletree has improved in that part of his game compared to what he was in college. Karlos Dansby is 6'4" 250. It's no surprise that he was able to improve at stacking and shedding blocks. Roquan Smith isn't Karlos Dansby. And no, Ogletree hasn't improved much if at all in that regard. He's still terrible at taking on blocks. Quote The fact the Rams have Ogletree who is this athletic freak in college, that does not mean teaming him up with another athletic linebacker at the opposite ILB spot is not a good idea. Or they could improve that 3/4 OLB spot and have a more solid guy at the point of attack there and allow the ILBs to flow a little more freely. But like most defenses it is multiple and it changes and guys move around. If you want this classic run stopping ILB on the Rams that is just great at shedding blocks, good luck with that one. Not many guys in this day and age fit that bill, especially with how offenses are played. Micah Kiser was wildly productive in college but is athletically limited, Tegray Scales I had high hopes for this year; still is a strong linebacker and could be a good 3/4 ILB potentially, Jack Cichy is very tough but see how he is off injury, Shaun Dion Hamilton is strong and quick but also is off injury and Kenny Young out of them all had to really get off blocks and had little to no help around him. Might be the only one who can make plays despite being blocked consistently. No, it means teaming him up with another ILB who can't get off blocks is a terrible idea. I watched every game the Rams played this year with one of the best defensive minds in football calling the plays. It was not difficult for me to see what our problems were. I don't particularly care about your theories. I saw what happens in practice. The good news is that it's not hard to find run-stopping LBs. If the Rams want a dynamic player, they can draft LVE. If they want a guy who is more limited, they can find a guy in FA. There are plenty of guys available who can play that role (ex. Avery Williamson, Todd Davis, Navorro Bowman, Tahir Whitehead, Kevin Minter, Preston Brown, etc.). Quote Then again could say if one is blocked consistently, you lack some athletic ability to get around the blocker, thus back to the Shazier comment who cares about how he sheds blocks if he is quick enough to get around them consistently. There is a reason Kenny Young for example gets blocked more often than some other linebackers, aka Roquan Smith Yet, the Steelers choose not to play Ryan Shazier as the Buck LB. I wonder why. Oh right, it's obvious why. Yes, scheme and fit are important. Stop trying to fight that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 5 hours ago, Ozzy said: Give me a freaking break, kid is an aggressive linebacker Watch that Oklahoma film from the CFB playoff. If that's an aggressive linebacker that sheds blocks, then consider me Myles Davis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 36 minutes ago, BleedTheClock said: Watch that Oklahoma film from the CFB playoff. If that's an aggressive linebacker that sheds blocks, then consider me Myles Davis. I should do what others do I supposed, post animated gifs to prove a point as if that is scouting? Pretty stupid right, but here we go. Ok you watch Roquan Smith, you think a weak linebacker who cannot take physical contact and get off blocks, right. And yes half the time getting off a block is not needed because he runs by the blocker. He goes after the ball with effort all the time, I would take that over perfect technique. Getting around the block instead of perfectly taking it straight on, he makes the play more often than not. Oh but no, he cannot take on blocks and is not a aggressive, strong, powerful hitting linebacker. He is easily the hardest hitting down hill attacking linebacker in this draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, jrry32 said: Yes, Vince Williams is a good fit with Ryan Shazier, and that's why Pittsburgh let Timmons go. Timmons was a versatile player who was capable of playing either ILB spot, but at this point in his career, Williams was a better Buck LB than Timmons. That allowed Shazier to excel as the Mack. Karlos Dansby is 6'4" 250. It's no surprise that he was able to improve at stacking and shedding blocks. Roquan Smith isn't Karlos Dansby. And no, Ogletree hasn't improved much if at all in that regard. He's still terrible at taking on blocks. No, it means teaming him up with another ILB who can't get off blocks is a terrible idea. I watched every game the Rams played this year with one of the best defensive minds in football calling the plays. It was not difficult for me to see what our problems were. I don't particularly care about your theories. I saw what happens in practice. The good news is that it's not hard to find run-stopping LBs. If the Rams want a dynamic player, they can draft LVE. If they want a guy who is more limited, they can find a guy in FA. There are plenty of guys available who can play that role (ex. Avery Williamson, Todd Davis, Navorro Bowman, Tahir Whitehead, Kevin Minter, Preston Brown, etc.). Yet, the Steelers choose not to play Ryan Shazier as the Buck LB. I wonder why. Oh right, it's obvious why. Yes, scheme and fit are important. Stop trying to fight that. I would never call Vince Williams a better player than Timmons, and Williams is only 3 years younger than Timmons. Will see how he does after having the season he had, I doubt he does the same and is just as productive. I am not a Rams aficionado. But maybe they cannot stop the run because their entire DL basically are pass rushers and they have no real run stoppers along that line. And they better have Ogletree and or Barron at linebacker or another athletic backer because sure as hell Barwin and Quinn are not going to cover anyone for any extended period of time. The safeties need some improvement as well, got a good find in Johnson but Joyner is not used around the line of scrimmage on the edge as much as he should be I feel. Sure they could move on from Barron but to call any of those guys a big upgrade from him, not sure how much it would improve the defense. Whitehead I like a lot and could be a good fit, Bowman is very good but aging and the injuries are starting to take a toll. Even if they get a linebacker that fills that role, does not mean they will all of a sudden stop the run, and most likely would give up more plays in the passing game potentially. And to say all their issues against the run would be solved by drafting Vander Esch, not so sure about that either. Oddly enough I was the first one on here to bring up Vander Esch and it was in September, now everyone speaks of him like they knew him and were a fan all along. Maybe watch his bowl game highlights I am sure after he declares for the draft early and everyone looks in on him all of a sudden as if they were on board all along... Fine player though for sure and really on the up swing for sure after a great season. But still you want a run stopping ILB, that does not mean the defense will then stop the run all of a sudden. Really stupid to even talk about because no way Smith falls to the 23rd pick anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ozzy said: I would never call Vince Williams a better player than Timmons, and Williams is only 3 years younger than Timmons. Will see how he does after having the season he had, I doubt he does the same and is just as productive. Vince Williams doesn't need to be a better overall player than Timmons. He only needs to be a better fit in that role. Quote I am not a Rams aficionado. But maybe they cannot stop the run because their entire DL basically are pass rushers and they have no real run stoppers along that line. And they better have Ogletree and or Barron at linebacker or another athletic backer because sure as hell Barwin and Quinn are not going to cover anyone for any extended period of time. The safeties need some improvement as well, got a good find in Johnson but Joyner is not used around the line of scrimmage on the edge as much as he should be I feel. Sure they could move on from Barron but to call any of those guys a big upgrade from him, not sure how much it would improve the defense. Whitehead I like a lot and could be a good fit, Bowman is very good but aging and the injuries are starting to take a toll. Even if they get a linebacker that fills that role, does not mean they will all of a sudden stop the run, and most likely would give up more plays in the passing game potentially. And to say all their issues against the run would be solved by drafting Vander Esch, not so sure about that either. Our entire DL are basically pass rushers? Yea, no doubt you're not a Rams fan. You have no idea what you're talking about. Brockers and Donald are both great run-stopping DLs. We do need a better NT. That's one of our holes that needs to be filled. The other is an ILB who can take on blockers and stop the run. Our safeties are fine. They're a strong point if anything. LVE doesn't have to solve all our problems against the run. He only needs to be an improvement. And yes, those guys are all big upgrades on Barron based on what we NEED. I am really getting tired of having to explain that value to a team is heavily dependent on scheme and fit. Barron can be the better player but still less valuable to the Rams. Quote Oddly enough I was the first one on here to bring up Vander Esch and it was in September, now everyone speaks of him like they knew him and were a fan all along. Maybe watch his bowl game highlights I am sure after he declares for the draft early and everyone looks in on him all of a sudden as if they were on board all along... Fine player though for sure and really on the up swing for sure after a great season. Here ya go: Quote But still you want a run stopping ILB, that does not mean the defense will then stop the run all of a sudden. Really stupid to even talk about because no way Smith falls to the 23rd pick anyway. Thanks, Captain Obvious, I had no idea that addressing one weakness might not solve the entire problem. And if Smith did fall to the 23rd pick, the Rams wouldn't draft him. Good. We can end this conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazer026 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Is Smith a similar prospect to Darron Lee? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconFan13 Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 2/19/2018 at 10:31 PM, Blazer026 said: Is Smith a similar prospect to Darron Lee? i would say Deion Jones but better tackler than jones while jones is a bit better in coverage. Maybe something like Lavonte David? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 2/19/2018 at 9:10 PM, Ozzy said: I should do what others do I supposed, post animated gifs to prove a point as if that is scouting? Pretty stupid right, but here we go. Ok you watch Roquan Smith, you think a weak linebacker who cannot take physical contact and get off blocks, right. And yes half the time getting off a block is not needed because he runs by the blocker. He goes after the ball with effort all the time, I would take that over perfect technique. Getting around the block instead of perfectly taking it straight on, he makes the play more often than not. Oh but no, he cannot take on blocks and is not a aggressive, strong, powerful hitting linebacker. He is easily the hardest hitting down hill attacking linebacker in this draft. The first 2 gifs aren't impressive to me. Those are runningbacks he's going up against. And one of those tackles is him getting pushed into the runner. The third .gif is never anything I've debated anyone on. He's an elite cover guy, particularly on runningbacks out of the backfield. He baits QB's into dumping it off and then closes like a missile and doesn't miss tackles. And there are no drag down tackles...these are stop hits. The fourth .gif is extremely impressive and I wish I saw this more from him. Gif #4 is what a "thumper" does. This was the first time I've seen him do something like this. Very impressive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 On 2/19/2018 at 10:31 PM, Blazer026 said: Is Smith a similar prospect to Darron Lee? Darron Lee was nowhere near the tackler than Roquan was. Smith isn't good at taking on blocks, but he's not Darron Lee bad at it either. Darron Lee was never someone I thought had an NFL future. Just too soft. Roquan isn't soft. He's just small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted February 21, 2018 Share Posted February 21, 2018 I don't think people that keep using these Deion Jones comparisons watched him play at LSU. He was an absolute missile that never scraped. He just FLEW to the football like a madman. He had excellent instincts and reads. Rarely did he slow play anything the way Roquan does. Not saying slow playing as a linebacker is a bad thing...it keeps Smith clean and is probably what that Georgia scheme calls for based on certain run concepts, but there's certainly a difference between Deion Jones and Roquan Smith in terms of how they play the game and how they win. Roquan kind of reminds me of Thomas Davis. Nothing wrong with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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