Roquan Smith or Tremaine Edmunds?

[Forge]

9 minutes ago, VanS said:

So Leonard Fournette is the first RB in NFL history to face a stacked box?

Many a RB have faced similar attention and done better than 3.9 YPC.  There is no way to spin such a pathetic average.

Give them to me. I don't have the stats.

Not saying you're wrong or right about fournette, FYI, just stating that arbitrarily quoting a ypc statistic doesn't make it so

[jrry32]

5 minutes ago, VanS said:

I could say the same for you.  Spinning an objectively bad season (at a position where rookies typically have huge numbers) because you had him rated highly going into the draft.

For the record, I don't just go off numbers.  I also watched Fournette a lot.  And I saw the same player I was not impressed with in college.

The numbers in this case help prove my point. 

Care to provide some proof of that? Yep, an "objectively bad" season where he rushed for 1282 yards and 13 TDs in 16 games (counting the playoffs).

[VanS]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Care to provide some proof of that? Yep, an "objectively bad" season where he rushed for 1282 yards and 13 TDs in 16 games (counting the playoffs).

My bad if you didn't think much of Fournette before the draft.  Its easier for me to assume that since most people did love him last year.

For the record, I grew up a Tennessee Titans fan in the early 2000s watching Eddie George put up huge rushing numbers year after year while averaging less than 4.0 YPC.   As a result, raw totals don't impress me much.  This is like telling me Jarvis Landry is an elite #1 receiver because he gets so many catches every year when he only averages 8.8 yards per reception.  At some point efficiency has to matter.   Anyone can run for a million yards if you give the enough carries.

Instead of pretending like 3.9 YPC isn't pathetic, you should have instead tried to argue that this was a one year fluke and that next season we'll see the "real" Leonard Fournette.  And he'll average a respectable YPC that would put him near or above the league average.  For example, Joe Mixon (a RB I was high on) had a similarly pathetic season last year in terms of running efficiency.  He averaged 3.5 YPC.  But I haven't given up on him.  I still think he can be an elite RB in the league.  But I'm not gonna pretend that his 3.5 YPC wasn't pathetic and must be improved upon.  Some of it was the o-line, some of it was him.  But you can't be considered a good player (let alone elite) as a RB if you average less than 4.0 YPC. 

[jrry32]

3 minutes ago, VanS said:

For the record, I grew up a Tennessee Titans fan in the early 2000s watching Eddie George put up huge rushing numbers year after year while averaging less than 4.0 YPC.   As a result, raw totals don't impress me much.  This is like telling me Jarvis Landry is an elite #1 receiver because he gets so many catches every year when he only averages 8.8 yards per reception.  At some point efficiency has to matter.   Anyone can run for a million yards if you give the enough carries.

Instead of pretending like 3.9 YPC isn't pathetic, you should have instead tried to argue that this was a one year fluke and that next season we'll see the "real" Leonard Fournette.  And he'll average a respectable YPC that would put him near or above the league average.  For example, Joe Mixon (a RB I was high on) had a similarly pathetic season last year in terms of running efficiency.  He averaged 3.5 YPC.  But I haven't given up on him.  I still think he can be an elite RB in the league.  But I'm not gonna pretend that his 3.5 YPC wasn't pathetic and must be improved upon.  Some of it was the o-line, some of it was him.  But you can't be considered a good player (let alone elite) as a RB if you average less than 4.0 YPC. 

Yes, you can. Eddie George was a great HB who got dragged down by Jeff Fisher. Todd Gurley was still Todd Gurley in 2016. He didn't suddenly learn how to run the ball again in 2017. You want to boil Fournette's game down to one stat because it confirms your opinion of him, an opinion that many of us disfavor.

[GSUeagles14]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

3.9 YPC says I was dead on.

Leonard Fournette is an average NFL RB at best.

we've already been through this, using solely ypc is pretty idiotic. Thoughts on LT, gurley, emmit smith, marhawn lynch, countless other examples?

 

I just read through youre other responses and its pretty obvious you won admit ypc is a flawed statistic. im sure thist will go ignored, however youve essentially called ladainian tomlinsons production as a runner pathetic for close to half his career. Ist theres a bigger sign that youre on the wrong side of an argument than that ?

[VanS]

13 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Yes, you can. Eddie George was a great HB who got dragged down by Jeff Fisher. Todd Gurley was still Todd Gurley in 2016. He didn't suddenly learn how to run the ball again in 2017. You want to boil Fournette's game down to one stat because it confirms your opinion of him, an opinion that many of us disfavor.

 

13 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

we've already been through this, using solely ypc is pretty idiotic. Thoughts on LT, gurley, emmit smith, marhawn lynch, countless other examples?

 

I just read through youre other responses and its pretty obvious you won admit ypc is a flawed statistic. im sure thist will go ignored, however youve essentially called ladainian tomlinsons production as a runner pathetic for close to half his career. Ist theres a bigger sign that youre on the wrong side of an argument than that ?

 

For the record, my main problem with Leonard Fournette still comes down to what I saw using my eye test when he was coming out of college and what I still see now in the NFL.  He's a large guy with great top end speed.  If you give him an alley no one can catch him.  But he's not great at making people miss or creating yardage for himself when there is nothing there.  To me it is the ability to make something out of nothing or to get extra yards where there aren't that separates the greats from the guys who are just average. 

The only reason I'm harping on the YPC number is because its one of the few objective markers we have to judge a running back.  Sure like every stat it has its faults but its better than us just bickering back and forth about our eye tests.  The reason I'm harping on Fournette's poor YPC average is because it supports my opinion of him as not having the best RB instincts and not being very good at creating extra yardage for himself.  One reason I was higher on Alvin Kamara coming out than Fournette is because of this very ability.  I saw Kamara time after time break tackles and creating more yardage than was blocked for by the offensive line or schemed for by the coach.   And after one season at New Orleans everyone is now seeing this remarkable ability Alvin has to break tackles or make people miss and get extra yardage than was blocked or schemed for.

If Fournette rushes for 1,300+ yards next season on 4.5+ YPC then by all means throw all of this back at me.  But as of now, I have seen nothing from Leonard Fournette to change my pre-draft opinion of him as a decent but unextraordinary RB.

[BleedTheClock]

42 minutes ago, VanS said:

If Fournette rushes for 1,300+ yards next season on 4.5+ YPC then by all means throw all of this back at me.  But as of now, I have seen nothing from Leonard Fournette to change my pre-draft opinion of him as a decent but unextraordinary RB.

Can't wait.  And I'm convinced you never watched him play in college if you don't think he can create without a seam. Or in the NFL, for that matter. I've seen Fournette spin, juke, stiff arm, and grind his way through tough spots all season long. Plus he actually pass blocks and plays against 8 man boxes.

I agree that YPC shouldn't be ignored, but I think you're severely underrating how tough Fournette's conditions for running were in comparison to Kamara's. Even if you want to say Kamara is better than Fournette, fine. I'll let you have that for now. But you're crapping on Fournette way too hard.

I expect Fournette to hit 1300+ yards next season if he's healthy. I expect Kamara to take a step back and not be able to reproduce the numbers he put up. It's all speculative right now so we'll have to wait and see.

[VanS]

1 hour ago, BleedTheClock said:

Can't wait.  And I'm convinced you never watched him play in college if you don't think he can create without a seam. Or in the NFL, for that matter. I've seen Fournette spin, juke, stiff arm, and grind his way through tough spots all season long. Plus he actually pass blocks and plays against 8 man boxes.

I agree that YPC shouldn't be ignored, but I think you're severely underrating how tough Fournette's conditions for running were in comparison to Kamara's. Even if you want to say Kamara is better than Fournette, fine. I'll let you have that for now. But you're crapping on Fournette way too hard.

I expect Fournette to hit 1300+ yards next season if he's healthy. I expect Kamara to take a step back and not be able to reproduce the numbers he put up. It's all speculative right now so we'll have to wait and see.

Here are Alvin Kamara's ranks as a rookie according to PFF:

#1 in yards after contact since 2006.  #1 in elusiveness rating since 2006.  If you're expecting him to fall off, then you'll be out of luck.  Alvin Kamara just has a gift for getting more yards than the play is designed for.  He always falls forward.  He has a knack for making people miss and breaking tackles.  And he's good enough to play WR full-time if you made him change positions.

I actually have Alvin Kamara as my favorite to win NFL MVP in 2018.  I expect the Saints to have the best record in the NFL during the regular season.  And I expect Alvin Kamara to keep doing what he's been doing (which is dominating the game running and receiving).  There were whispers late last season (from guys like Deion Sanders) that he should've been an MVP candidate.  Next year those whispers become shouts.

With regard to Leonard Fournette, I did watch him extensively at LSU.  I haven't watched him as much in the NFL, but I have seen enough to know he's still the same player.  I never said he was incapable of making people miss and creating more yards than the play was designed to gain.  He's just not extremely proficient at it.  Especially when you compare him to someone like Alvin Kamara. 

 

[GSUeagles14]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

 

 

For the record, my main problem with Leonard Fournette still comes down to what I saw using my eye test when he was coming out of college and what I still see now in the NFL.  He's a large guy with great top end speed.  If you give him an alley no one can catch him.  But he's not great at making people miss or creating yardage for himself when there is nothing there.  To me it is the ability to make something out of nothing or to get extra yards where there aren't that separates the greats from the guys who are just average. 

The only reason I'm harping on the YPC number is because its one of the few objective markers we have to judge a running back.  Sure like every stat it has its faults but its better than us just bickering back and forth about our eye tests.  The reason I'm harping on Fournette's poor YPC average is because it supports my opinion of him as not having the best RB instincts and not being very good at creating extra yardage for himself.  One reason I was higher on Alvin Kamara coming out than Fournette is because of this very ability.  I saw Kamara time after time break tackles and creating more yardage than was blocked for by the offensive line or schemed for by the coach.   And after one season at New Orleans everyone is now seeing this remarkable ability Alvin has to break tackles or make people miss and get extra yardage than was blocked or schemed for.

If Fournette rushes for 1,300+ yards next season on 4.5+ YPC then by all means throw all of this back at me.  But as of now, I have seen nothing from Leonard Fournette to change my pre-draft opinion of him as a decent but unextraordinary RB.

no, whats better is to not use one flawed stat that really contains no context and use it as gospel. you said in your most recent post that you havent seen fournette much in the nfl, yet youre judging him off one flawed stat. How about looking at broken tackles, stacked boxes, etc to see if hes leaving yards n the field. And you never replied with your thoughts on LTs career as a runner, you obviously feel it was pretty close to pathetic, no?

[GSUeagles14]

4 hours ago, VanS said:

Here are Alvin Kamara's ranks as a rookie according to PFF:

#1 in yards after contact since 2006.  #1 in elusiveness rating since 2006.  If you're expecting him to fall off, then you'll be out of luck.  Alvin Kamara just has a gift for getting more yards than the play is designed for.  He always falls forward.  He has a knack for making people miss and breaking tackles.  And he's good enough to play WR full-time if you made him change positions.

I actually have Alvin Kamara as my favorite to win NFL MVP in 2018.  I expect the Saints to have the best record in the NFL during the regular season.  And I expect Alvin Kamara to keep doing what he's been doing (which is dominating the game running and receiving).  There were whispers late last season (from guys like Deion Sanders) that he should've been an MVP candidate.  Next year those whispers become shouts.

With regard to Leonard Fournette, I did watch him extensively at LSU.  I haven't watched him as much in the NFL, but I have seen enough to know he's still the same player.  I never said he was incapable of making people miss and creating more yards than the play was designed to gain.  He's just not extremely proficient at it.  Especially when you compare him to someone like Alvin Kamara. 

 

didnt fall forward here, prob could have used some of that elusivesness he ranked #1 in. Kamaras undeniablt talented, calling him an mvp candidate is moronic, and yes Deion Sanders is a moron. Kamara never broke 12 carries in a game, he never broke 20 touches in a game. he averaged 101.8 scrimmage  yards/game if were generous and take out atl since he was injured so early. that pathetic season fournette just had, he averaged 103.23 yards/game. hes not an mvp candidate.

 

 

[VanS]

4 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

no, whats better is to not use one flawed stat that really contains no context and use it as gospel. you said in your most recent post that you havent seen fournette much in the nfl, yet youre judging him off one flawed stat. How about looking at broken tackles, stacked boxes, etc to see if hes leaving yards n the field. And you never replied with your thoughts on LTs career as a runner, you obviously feel it was pretty close to pathetic, no?

Compared to college.  I watched every non-cupcake game LSU played.  I don't watch every Jags game.  This is where college and the spread out schedule of games during the day has an advantage over the NFL where all the games are scheduled during 2 time blocks (1pm and 4pm EST).   With that said, I still watched plenty of Jags games to know this is still the same Leonard Fournette I saw in college.  You don't need to watch a player play EVERY GAME to get a handle on him.  I've seen enough football from Leonard Fournette where I know his game pretty well.  That is why a couple of great performances in the playoffs (that has had the media going crazy this off-season with undue praise) didn't sway my opinion at all.

With regard to LT, I didn't respond to that point because it was inaccurate first of all and more importantly because it was irrelevant.  It was inaccurate because LT was SPECTACULAR statistically for most of his career.  And it was irrelevant because Leonard Fournette is simply not the talent LT was.  Sure LT had a slow start to his career averaging only 3.6 YPC as a rookie.  However, from 2002-2008 (when he was between the ages of 23-29 aka the prime years for a RB), LT averaged 1,503 rushing yards on 4.5 YPC and 17 rushing TDs PER SEASON.  If Leonard Fournette comes anywhere close to that production for the next 7 years I'll stop posting about football ever again.  I simply don't believe he has that talent.  So its a waste of time for me to entertain any comparisons to a player of that caliber.  LT had a bad rookie season and a couple of bad years toward the end of his career as he approached 30 and then passed it.  Its natural for RBs when they get close to 30 to not be great players anymore.  However, from 2002-2008, when he was in his prime LT played at a level that any RB in the NFL right now could only dream to match.

 

[ReadyToThump]

Holy ****, what thread am I am? 

[VanS]

4 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

didnt fall forward here, prob could have used some of that elusivesness he ranked #1 in. Kamaras undeniablt talented, calling him an mvp candidate is moronic, and yes Deion Sanders is a moron. Kamara never broke 12 carries in a game, he never broke 20 touches in a game. he averaged 101.8 scrimmage  yards/game if were generous and take out atl since he was injured so early. that pathetic season fournette just had, he averaged 103.23 yards/game. hes not an mvp candidate.

 

 

Kinda petty to be making fun of a player getting injured.

I've made my opinion clear.  I'm not gonna keep bickering about it.  We'll just see what happens next season.

 

[Scoundrel]

Can we focus on the linebackers?

[Iamcanadian]

8 hours ago, VanS said:

Here are Alvin Kamara's ranks as a rookie according to PFF:

#1 in yards after contact since 2006.  #1 in elusiveness rating since 2006.  If you're expecting him to fall off, then you'll be out of luck.  Alvin Kamara just has a gift for getting more yards than the play is designed for.  He always falls forward.  He has a knack for making people miss and breaking tackles.  And he's good enough to play WR full-time if you made him change positions.

I actually have Alvin Kamara as my favorite to win NFL MVP in 2018.  I expect the Saints to have the best record in the NFL during the regular season.  And I expect Alvin Kamara to keep doing what he's been doing (which is dominating the game running and receiving).  There were whispers late last season (from guys like Deion Sanders) that he should've been an MVP candidate.  Next year those whispers become shouts.

With regard to Leonard Fournette, I did watch him extensively at LSU.  I haven't watched him as much in the NFL, but I have seen enough to know he's still the same player.  I never said he was incapable of making people miss and creating more yards than the play was designed to gain.  He's just not extremely proficient at it.  Especially when you compare him to someone like Alvin Kamara. 

 

Last I looked, Jacksonville went pretty far into the playoffs with a mediocre QB and it was their running attack which carried their offense, so I believe that Fournette carried their offense on his back and teams could gamble on stopping their running attack since Bortles was unlikely to beat them throwing the ball.

Kamara had a wonderful year, but Brees definitely opened up the running lanes for him as Brees remains a very dangerous passer. 

Bortles had off season surgery and may return a better passer and if so, Fournette will also remain a solid NFL RB. I see little merit in your YPC argument, given  the advantage Kamara had in QB's. Fournette is a solid NFL RB and if he remains injury free, will be around for many years!!!