Forge Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 44 minutes ago, ReadyToThump said: Holy ****, what thread am I am? 35 minutes ago, Counselor said: Can we focus on the linebackers Agree with both. Over a page of unrelated topic, so let's swing back to the topic at hand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 As to Smith vs Edmunds, LBer is one of the toughest position to assess as to their ability to adjust to the next level. A college LB does not play the position in any way like a pro does and it is an immense adjustment to succeed at the next level. The Combine/Pro Days is crucial for these prospects, where they will workout at the position and run pro drills. Picking one over the other is not practical at this stage of the draft process, LBers really need to go through the Combine/Pro Days to determine their quality to be a pro, anyone who tries to predict now, is just using wishful thinking, because nobody has a lot to go on re: LBers at this stage of the draft process! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said: As to Smith vs Edmunds, LBer is one of the toughest position to assess as to their ability to adjust to the next level. A college LB does not play the position in any way like a pro does and it is an immense adjustment to succeed at the next level. The Combine/Pro Days is crucial for these prospects, where they will workout at the position and run pro drills. Picking one over the other is not practical at this stage of the draft process, LBers really need to go through the Combine/Pro Days to determine their quality to be a pro, anyone who tries to predict now, is just using wishful thinking, because nobody has a lot to go on re: LBers at this stage of the draft process! I pretty much disagree with everything in this post... The combine and pro days should only confirm what you know and see on tape. It doesn't really tell you their quality to be a pro and you should definitely be able to make a reasonable analysis on them without combine and pro days. Nobody should be basing their opinions on a prospect on the combine, and certainly not their pro day. Nobody has a lot to go on? What? They have the last two years of game tape. I'd also argue that off the ball linebacker isn't one of the most difficult positions to transition from college to nfl. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 2 hours ago, Iamcanadian said: Last I looked, Jacksonville went pretty far into the playoffs with a mediocre QB and it was their running attack which carried their offense, so I believe that Fournette carried their offense on his back and teams could gamble on stopping their running attack since Bortles was unlikely to beat them throwing the ball. Kamara had a wonderful year, but Brees definitely opened up the running lanes for him as Brees remains a very dangerous passer. Bortles had off season surgery and may return a better passer and if so, Fournette will also remain a solid NFL RB. I see little merit in your YPC argument, given the advantage Kamara had in QB's. Fournette is a solid NFL RB and if he remains injury free, will be around for many years!!! Fournette missed 3 games last season. In those 3 games the Jaguars went 3-0 with the following margins of victory: 27-0 at Indianapolis, 23-7 vs Cincinnati, and 45-7 vs Houston. Sure that wasn't the greatest opposition but they won all 3 games easily and had no problems scoring. The Jaguars were carried by an elite defense. PERIOD. You could've put any above average RB on that team and they would have had the exact same record. Nothing in the numbers or their performances when he didn't play suggest Leonard Fournette was the key to anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoundrel Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 6 hours ago, VanS said: Fournette missed 3 games last season. In those 3 games the Jaguars went 3-0 with the following margins of victory: 27-0 at Indianapolis, 23-7 vs Cincinnati, and 45-7 vs Houston. Sure that wasn't the greatest opposition but they won all 3 games easily and had no problems scoring. The Jaguars were carried by an elite defense. PERIOD. You could've put any above average RB on that team and they would have had the exact same record. Nothing in the numbers or their performances when he didn't play suggest Leonard Fournette was the key to anything. Stop. This thread is about two linebackers. Take it elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 Too much is made out of the ability of LBs to "stack and shed". The modern NFL doesn't require that thumper (read size) LB some still seem to covet. Edmunds IMO is overrated. He looked better as the season wore on, which is encouraging, but early on he wasn't that impressive. Smith is just far more instinctual and smart on the field. Can't block a player who beats you to the spot. Don't overthink the stack and shed stuff. Also.... just throwing it out there. Scales from Indiana is another undersized guy who pops. Poor mans Smith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reamer Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 36 minutes ago, big_palooka said: Too much is made out of the ability of LBs to "stack and shed". The modern NFL doesn't require that thumper (read size) LB some still seem to covet. Edmunds IMO is overrated. He looked better as the season wore on, which is encouraging, but early on he wasn't that impressive. Smith is just far more instinctual and smart on the field. Can't block a player who beats you to the spot. Don't overthink the stack and shed stuff. Also.... just throwing it out there. Scales from Indiana is another undersized guy who pops. Poor mans Smith. Depends a lot on scheme and formation. Some coordinators still ask their LBs to stack and shed regularly. It's also perfectly legitimate to note whether a player can or can't do it; different skill sets are important for different reasons, and different teams will evaluate and draft accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrry32 Posted February 27, 2018 Share Posted February 27, 2018 1 hour ago, big_palooka said: Too much is made out of the ability of LBs to "stack and shed". The modern NFL doesn't require that thumper (read size) LB some still seem to covet. A lot of schemes still do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 On 2/27/2018 at 1:29 AM, Forge said: I pretty much disagree with everything in this post... The combine and pro days should only confirm what you know and see on tape. It doesn't really tell you their quality to be a pro and you should definitely be able to make a reasonable analysis on them without combine and pro days. Nobody should be basing their opinions on a prospect on the combine, and certainly not their pro day. Nobody has a lot to go on? What? They have the last two years of game tape. I'd also argue that off the ball linebacker isn't one of the most difficult positions to transition from college to nfl. I could not disagree more, LBers have a huge failure rate at the next level, because it is a whole different position in the pros. Mayock always talks about wanting to see the LBers workout, because he wants to see how they adjust to playing pro schemes. Lbers in college are basically run stoppers and have never been trained to drop into pass coverage like a pro LBer does, it is a whole new ball game for a college LBer. They almost never play man to man coverage in college, haven't trained their hips to to handle a speedy RB who goes out for a pass, since the majority of college RB's rarely are even asked to catch a ball, never mind run routes. College LBers do not understand pro route running, are weak in zone coverage if their team does not use a zone defense??? What good is game tape if a college LB is used strictly as a run stopper, what good is game tape if a LBer has never done man to man coverage or played in a zone defense. It is one of the hardest position to adjust to at the next level and many, many top college LBers are duds as a pro, because they cannot make the adjustments necessary to play the position at the next level. Only 2 All American LBers went in round 1 of the draft last year, Davis at # 21 and Foster at #31 and they both were top rated prospects, but drafting LBers scare GM's because of their failure rate based on the huge adjustment they must make at the next level!!! In the 2016 draft, not one LBer went in round 1. Do some LBers make a solid adjustment at the next level, of course there will be some, but I repeat, it is a very scary position to use a 1st rounder on based on game film, If they blow up the Combine doing pro drills, that is one thing, but using college game tape to judge a prospect as a pro LB is like committing suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 hour ago, Iamcanadian said: I could not disagree more, LBers have a huge failure rate at the next level, because it is a whole different position in the pros. Mayock always talks about wanting to see the LBers workout, because he wants to see how they adjust to playing pro schemes. Lbers in college are basically run stoppers and have never been trained to drop into pass coverage like a pro LBer does, it is a whole new ball game for a college LBer. They almost never play man to man coverage in college, haven't trained their hips to to handle a speedy RB who goes out for a pass, since the majority of college RB's rarely are even asked to catch a ball, never mind run routes. College LBers do not understand pro route running, are weak in zone coverage if their team does not use a zone defense??? What good is game tape if a college LB is used strictly as a run stopper, what good is game tape if a LBer has never done man to man coverage or played in a zone defense. It is one of the hardest position to adjust to at the next level and many, many top college LBers are duds as a pro, because they cannot make the adjustments necessary to play the position at the next level. Only 2 All American LBers went in round 1 of the draft last year, Davis at # 21 and Foster at #31 and they both were top rated prospects, but drafting LBers scare GM's because of their failure rate based on the huge adjustment they must make at the next level!!! In the 2016 draft, not one LBer went in round 1. Do some LBers make a solid adjustment at the next level, of course there will be some, but I repeat, it is a very scary position to use a 1st rounder on based on game film, If they blow up the Combine doing pro drills, that is one thing, but using college game tape to judge a prospect as a pro LB is like committing suicide. You are assuming that they aren't drafted in the first because they are scary...could just as easily be that off the ball linebackers aren't valued as highly as other positions in the draft. Guards aren't typically drafted super high either...has nothing to do with fear of failure at the position. I also don't think a fear of failure rate of off the ball linebackers had anything to do with Foster going #31 last year given the injury and character concerns... Also have no idea why you are equating the combine with being able to tell if they can cover in the NFL. All you're getting at the combine is the raw data numbers of what you are seeing on the tape. It's not telling you if a guy is quick to diagnose a play or recognize routes in coverage... But if you want to judge everything based on the combine, more power to you. What good is game tape? Oh dear lord....I can't even... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chwf3rd25 Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 23 minutes ago, Iamcanadian said: Only 2 All American LBers went in round 1 of the draft last year, Davis at # 21 and Foster at #31 and they both were top rated prospects, but drafting LBers scare GM's because of their failure rate based on the huge adjustment they must make at the next level!!! In the 2016 draft, not one LBer went in round 1. Not sure what the point of this is. You're trying to use the fact that 2 out of the 3 LBs drafted in the first round (with the other being Reddick who didnt play LB in college) were All-Americans to argue that college production/tape isn't that important for projecting LBs to the NFL? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iamcanadian Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 5 hours ago, Chwf3rd25 said: Not sure what the point of this is. You're trying to use the fact that 2 out of the 3 LBs drafted in the first round (with the other being Reddick who didnt play LB in college) were All-Americans to argue that college production/tape isn't that important for projecting LBs to the NFL? How can you use simply game tape to project a LB at the next level. The way they play in college simply does not relate to how they will have to play as pros, it isn't even close. Watching college LBers defend the run, which is almost their complete tree in college, hardly is going to indicate whether or not they can defend a pass and that is over half their job at the next level, never mind having to handle all the complex pass defenses they will be asked to do as a pro. I have seen many a star college LB, completely lost in pass defense as a pro. The Combine for most, is the first time they will be asked to play pass defense in a pro defense and how they perform is quite important for them, their game tape is not going to tell you a whole lot about their ability to defend a pass. In fact, game tape at a lot of positions can be useless when studying a prospect. For instance, WR's in college are rarely manhandled at the LOS as most college CB play off the ball and give WR's a cushion that they may not get as a pro. Few college WR's run much of a route tree, and depend on the fact that the CB covering them, has no pro potential, making getting separation far easier than it will ever be at the next level. If a WR is playing against a team whose CB's and Safeties run a 4.75 40 or worse, what good is that tape in assessing his pro potential,. If an OLmen, say a LT, is facing a slow weaker RDE, what will tape or film tell you and considering that a college player rarely faces another solid pro prospect, his whole career in college, game tape can sometimes be useless!!! Speed, strength, explosiveness and quickness can all be deceptive on tape, because nobody really studies the pro abilities of the defenders that you are comparing the prospect too. I have studied tape for years and you had better have backup facts from the Combine, before getting too carried away by film. It is once you have the facts about a prospects speed, strength, explosiveness and quickness and can see them perform beside other solid pro prospects, that game film becomes important, to see how they use the skills they have proved they possess at the Combine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlNFL19 Posted March 29, 2018 Author Share Posted March 29, 2018 Okay, so I finally scouted them both, and wow. They are both very good prospects. I graded both out similarly, with: Roquan Smith, ILB, Georgia - 8.05 - So far, tied with Barkley for the best grade I've given out this year, and ever, since this is my first year really scouting. Tremaine Edmunds, ILB, Virginia Tech - 8.03 - Really close, but his diagnosing skills are worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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