vike daddy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: This is an honest question.... Kirk has the EXACT same season but Carlson's kick goes through to beat GB and the defense shows up for the LA game (aka games where Kirk put his team into position to win but his supporting cast failed him). We finish 10-6 and make the playoffs. Are we still this down on Kirk? probably depends on how he plays IN the payoffs, but yes your point is taken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: This is an honest question.... Kirk has the EXACT same season but Carlson's kick goes through to beat GB and the defense shows up for the LA game (aka games where Kirk put his team into position to win but his supporting cast failed him). We finish 10-6 and make the playoffs. Are we still this down on Kirk? Yes, most likely. Cousins would likely have had to win a playoff game to wash away the stink from the end of the year. Had Carlson made the kick against Green Bay, the Vikings would have made the playoffs over the Eagles. But that wouldn’t have excused how poorly Cousins, and the team overall, played down the stretch against any meaningful opponent. Until Cousins, and this team, decide to show up in a big game and/or againts a meaningful opponent, the narrative won’t change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsrule Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 13 minutes ago, SemperFeist said: Yes, most likely. Cousins would likely have had to win a playoff game to wash away the stink from the end of the year. Had Carlson made the kick against Green Bay, the Vikings would have made the playoffs over the Eagles. But that wouldn’t have excused how poorly Cousins, and the team overall, played down the stretch against any meaningful opponent. Until Cousins, and this team, decide to show up in a big game and/or againts a meaningful opponent, the narrative won’t change. Agreed. We need more from Cousins than just a stat padder against bad teams. He needs to play consistently. If Carlson made that kick, perhaps the outcome would have changed. However, we can't ignore that Cousins threw a terrible Interception at the end of the game that was wiped out by a bogus late hit penalty that probably doesn't get called 9 times out of 10. We talk about the defense not having a bad game against the Rams, my concern is that could become a trend if we choose to ignore that side of the ball this offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 hours ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: This is an honest question.... Kirk has the EXACT same season but Carlson's kick goes through to beat GB and the defense shows up for the LA game (aka games where Kirk put his team into position to win but his supporting cast failed him). We finish 10-6 and make the playoffs. Are we still this down on Kirk? Neither of those things happened. The season's failure...yes, it was a failure...cannot be totally blamed on Cousins...but he gets his fair share of the blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Virginia Viking said: Neither of those things happened. Well no crap, Einstein. I mean I get it....there's technically nothing to be gained in talking about hypothetical situations that didn't happen but what else are we going to talk about from now to April? We can talk about "What If's" like if we drafted Hernandez instead of Hughes or Teddy never got hurt and kept that 1st used on Bradford or we never sell the farm for Hershel but there's no point in talking about how we feel about Kirk in that hypothetical because it didn't happen because you don't like Kirk? It's discussion to see what would have been considered a successful season for Kirk outside of the SB. Is making the playoffs enough? Is losing a close playoff game enough? Is winning the wild card game but losing in the division round enough? Sorry, I just HATE that reply when people give it. It's so condescending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 hours ago, SemperFeist said: Yes, most likely. Cousins would likely have had to win a playoff game to wash away the stink from the end of the year. Had Carlson made the kick against Green Bay, the Vikings would have made the playoffs over the Eagles. But that wouldn’t have excused how poorly Cousins, and the team overall, played down the stretch against any meaningful opponent. Until Cousins, and this team, decide to show up in a big game and/or againts a meaningful opponent, the narrative won’t change. This is my thinking. I think the outlook on Kirk is a slightly bit better if he has a great wild card game and we still lose but there's so much stank on from the Chicago and Seattle game that unless the team won in Chicago (or Dallas I guess), the stigma around Kirk would be the same. There was just one too many games where Kirk didn't show up to say "OK, not the ideal 1st season but not completely bad." 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swede700 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 33 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: Well no crap, Einstein. Shouldn't that be "no crap, Thomas"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 hours ago, vikingsrule said: We talk about the defense not having a bad game against the Rams, my concern is that could become a trend if we choose to ignore that side of the ball this offseason. Maybe I'm wrong here but I think having a stout defense just isn't enough in today's NFL if you don't have a solid offense. You need a defense who can generate turnovers and bail out an offense with field position when an offense is struggling. Our D had a very good season and bailed out the offense many of times when we went 3 & out around our own 25 or deeper but they never really turned the ball over when we relied on field position. Our offense would stall, we'd pin them via punt around their 35-40, defense would stop them right back, then they'd punt it back deep in our zone, offense would stall, we'd punt it to their 40, blah blah blah. Rinse and repeat until something gives (offense moves the ball or opposing offense scores). We were 29th in the league in forced fumbles (although we did recover all 8 we forced) and 18th in INTs with 12. I know it's not Zimmer's (Matt) forte but I wouldn't be against getting some playmakers on defense or tweaking the scheme to allow for more turnovers. Obviously, there's only one Khalil Mack but he was responsible for 6 forced fumbles on his own. I just want a player who you can look at and say "Alright Cletus, go make a huge play and get us some momentum." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 30 minutes ago, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: Well no crap, Einstein. It's discussion to see what would have been considered a successful season for Kirk outside of the SB. Is making the playoffs enough? Is losing a close playoff game enough? Is winning the wild card game but losing in the division round enough? Sorry, I just HATE that reply when people give it. It's so condescending. Well...I'm no Einstein...maybe an Edison or a Franklin...but certainly not an Einstein!! I will admit...my trying to be objective regarding Kirk Cousins is pretty difficult. I thought he was unproductive, in terms of wins and losses, as a Redskin and I fear that lack of production is what he brings to the Vikings. I think a "successful" first season for Cousins would've been a playoff appearance. However, for the 3 years of his contract, I think Minnesota is expecting a Super Bowl and anything less will ultimately declare him a bust. My problem...and again, I admit it's MY problem...is I don't believe, even with a better offensive line, that Cousins is the QB to deliver a Super Bowl. I do apologize for coming across as condescending. That was not my intention. I'm not much a "what if" thinker...although, I'm pretty sure Einstein might have been!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vikes_Bolts1228 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said: Well...I'm no Einstein...maybe an Edison or a Franklin...but certainly not an Einstein!! I will admit...my trying to be objective regarding Kirk Cousins is pretty difficult. I thought he was unproductive, in terms of wins and losses, as a Redskin and I fear that lack of production is what he brings to the Vikings. I think a "successful" first season for Cousins would've been a playoff appearance. However, for the 3 years of his contract, I think Minnesota is expecting a Super Bowl and anything less will ultimately declare him a bust. My problem...and again, I admit it's MY problem...is I don't believe, even with a better offensive line, that Cousins is the QB to deliver a Super Bowl. I do apologize for coming across as condescending. That was not my intention. I'm not much a "what if" thinker...although, I'm pretty sure Einstein might have been!! Just be thankful I didn't call you Weinstein..... But I do agree with you. The Kirk contract won't be a success, in my eyes, if in 2019 we win a playoff game and lose the next week (especially if it's wild card/divisional). 13-3 is damn hard to repeat and making it to the Super Bowl is even harder but at minimum, we need a NFCCG appearance (or better) if I'm going to consider Kirk a success. But I can't call Kirk a failure yet even if the needle is pointing more down than up. I know there's no point in being a "what if" thinker but it's still fun to play out the scenarios in different situations. It's a long off-season....that hasn't even officially started yet we're heading into 3 weeks without a meaningful game in Valhalla. Gotta do something to change up the conversation even if it means playing out fantasy scenarios. But like I said, it's nothing against you....I just hate that reply on a message board. Edited January 16, 2019 by Vikes_Bolts1228 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wcblack34 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) I fully doubt Cousins’ ability to take this, or any, team deep into the playoffs. The only way this signing is successful, and he isn’t seen as an utter failure, is a Super Bowl appearance. But he’s not taking us there. It’s just not in him. I hope he proves me wrong, and y’all can screenshot me on this, but he won’t win more than 10 games in a season as a Viking. He certainly won’t take us past the Wild Card round. And with his contract, we won’t be able to put an All Pro team around him to mask his deficiencies. Edited January 17, 2019 by wcblack34 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywindO2 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 12:50 AM, Vikes_Bolts1228 said: This is an honest question.... Kirk has the EXACT same season but Carlson's kick goes through to beat GB and the defense shows up for the LA game (aka games where Kirk put his team into position to win but his supporting cast failed him). We finish 10-6 and make the playoffs. Are we still this down on Kirk? I don't know if it changes my thoughts about Kirk but does JDF still get fired in that scenario? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SemperFeist Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 48 minutes ago, skywindO2 said: I don't know if it changes my thoughts about Kirk but does JDF still get fired in that scenario? Most likely, yes. Because the scenario didn’t change what ultimately led to his dismissal. Making a kick in week 2, or beating a team in week 5 doesn’t change what took place after the bye week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
milanb Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 On 16/01/2019 at 8:29 AM, SemperFeist said: Until Cousins, and this team, decide to show up in a big game and/or againts a meaningful opponent, the narrative won’t change. That was one of the issues I had with the Kirk Cousins signing in the first place. You had a Vikings team that didn't show up to play in the NFC Championship game last year, but the ownership and front office doled out a huge amount of guaranteed money to a QB with something of a reputation for not producing on game day in situations when it really mattered. And he turned the ball over a bit too much to be an ideal choice for a team built to win with defence and field position. I posted earlier in the season that I believed that Cousins will either take the Vikings to the Super Bowl or he will get both Zimmer and Spielman fired. We'll have to wait and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsrule Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, milanb said: That was one of the issues I had with the Kirk Cousins signing in the first place. You had a Vikings team that didn't show up to play in the NFC Championship game last year, but the ownership and front office doled out a huge amount of guaranteed money to a QB with something of a reputation for not producing on game day in situations when it really mattered. And he turned the ball over a bit too much to be an ideal choice for a team built to win with defence and field position. I posted earlier in the season that I believed that Cousins will either take the Vikings to the Super Bowl or he will get both Zimmer and Spielman fired. We'll have to wait and see what happens. Isn't that the fate of every coach and GM? Win a super bowl or get fired? Even the Bengals fired Marvin Lewis despite hanging onto him for too long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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