jerry ang Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 On Balance, if everything remains the same, our D will be much better just because of the DC change. Would have be nice if this happened a few years earlier...we might have had another ring! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Trace Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 18 hours ago, CWood21 said: A franchise QB will always trump a pass rusher, so I'm not really going to use 2009 against them. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the Jets preferred their pass rushers in the bigger mold. Positional tweeners like Hughes and Barr wouldn't have fit what they wanted. And I wouldn't really call Hughes or Barr elite pass rush prospects. Either way, I think the whole point is moot since Pettine probably wasn't a huge decision maker. I'm sure he had input, but in terms of the hierarchy I'd imaging he was pretty far down the board. 2 It's worth noting, though, that his teams drafted said CBs (Gilbert, Wilson) while already having a stud CB in his prime (Haden, Revis respectively -- and Antonio Cromartie paired with Revis to boot). And while we don't know exactly how much clout he had in those rooms, he was part of a team that seemed to have that general philosophy. I'd guess that as DC in NY and HC in CLE, he had a pretty significant amount of sway over the selections, anything but "far down" <sic> the chain. Also worth noting that Pettine himself was a DB (free-safety) in his playing days. And while he has seldom had any real special 'rushers on his rosters, he has gotten pretty good mileage out of them from the way his scheme works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gopher Trace Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Joe said: yeah, we're better off at the position than you think we are. Our secondary has had to take on way too much of the workload because of a lack of a pass rush. We've been in the bottom half of the league in sacks the last three seasons with two of those seasons being bottom 5 of the league. At this level, QBs get rid of the ball within about 3 seconds. An edge-rusher actually relies on coverage for their success, not the other way around, because a QB will typically dump the ball off before the 'edge can get around the OT (an OT who may even have some TE/RB help). Pass-rush up the middle is different because it gets the QB off their spot and screws up the timing (why Wilkerson was a very nice get for us). That is a lot more helpful to the secondary, but the "conventional wisdom" that a sack-artist will help make this secondary look better is actually rather flawed. In the pros, sacks happen when the QB has no one open to dump it off to and have basically acquiesced to not throw a pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Joe said: yeah, we're better off at the position than you think we are. Our secondary has had to take on way too much of the workload because of a lack of a pass rush. We've been in the bottom half of the league in sacks the last three seasons with two of those seasons being bottom 5 of the league. I don't agree and I'm not sure what you are basing it on. WITH Randall and Burnett our secondary has been one of the worst 2 or 3 units in the league the last 2 years. Do we have a CB on the roster who's shown he is a capable, consistent starting caliber NFL CB? King is the best we've got and he was extremely up and down. While he looked ok at moments he looked AWFUL in others. While pass rush is important, so is talent. We've got no talent at CB right now. Quinton Rollins who is not a NFL caliber player is our most experienced CB. Hawkins, Pipkens, Waters, Goodson and Rollins are much closer to being practice squad caliber CBs than starters IMO. I'm not sure they'd make most teams in the NFL much less start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 15 minutes ago, Gopher Trace said: At this level, QBs get rid of the ball within about 3 seconds. Yup In the article I read, they showed the steady drop in average-time-to- throw over the last 5 seasons. It's now well below 3 seconds ( on average). Drew Brees came in at 2.43, Alex Smith at 2.36, Rodgers was at 2.87 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 4 hours ago, Gopher Trace said: It's worth noting, though, that his teams drafted said CBs (Gilbert, Wilson) while already having a stud CB in his prime (Haden, Revis respectively -- and Antonio Cromartie paired with Revis to boot). And while we don't know exactly how much clout he had in those rooms, he was part of a team that seemed to have that general philosophy. I'd guess that as DC in NY and HC in CLE, he had a pretty significant amount of sway over the selections, anything but "far down" <sic> the chain. Also worth noting that Pettine himself was a DB (free-safety) in his playing days. And while he has seldom had any real special 'rushers on his rosters, he has gotten pretty good mileage out of them from the way his scheme works. I'm leery about tying coordinators to draft picks. At best, they're probably 3rd in line in terms of decision making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 3 hours ago, SSG said: I don't agree and I'm not sure what you are basing it on. WITH Randall and Burnett our secondary has been one of the worst 2 or 3 units in the league the last 2 years. Do we have a CB on the roster who's shown he is a capable, consistent starting caliber NFL CB? King is the best we've got and he was extremely up and down. While he looked ok at moments he looked AWFUL in others. While pass rush is important, so is talent. We've got no talent at CB right now. Quinton Rollins who is not a NFL caliber player is our most experienced CB. Hawkins, Pipkens, Waters, Goodson and Rollins are much closer to being practice squad caliber CBs than starters IMO. I'm not sure they'd make most teams in the NFL much less start. And this is why I dont buy the "pass rush fixes all" narrative. I've seen too many plays over the last 2-3 years where Matthews or Perry came clean off an edge for a potential sack and the QB, instead of (a) being sacked or (b) having to throw it away or (c) throwing a pick into coverage, instead, despite instant pressure, throws to a WIDE OPEN receiver. A pass rush is useless without at least baseline minimal coverage. Right now I doubt we could consistently do that with this group and I don't expect a rookie alone to substantially change that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, packfanfb said: And this is why I dont buy the "pass rush fixes all" narrative. I've seen too many plays over the last 2-3 years where Matthews or Perry came clean off an edge for a potential sack and the QB, instead of (a) being sacked or (b) having to throw it away or (c) throwing a pick into coverage, instead, despite instant pressure, throws to a WIDE OPEN receiver. A pass rush is useless without at least baseline minimal coverage. Right now I doubt we could consistently do that with this group and I don't expect a rookie alone to substantially change that. I think you're making the point against your own argument. You don't need elite CB play, you need serviceable play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
packfanfb Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 8 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I think you're making the point against your own argument. You don't need elite CB play, you need serviceable play. Which we dont have, that's my point. We dont need Trumaine Johnson (would be nice but whatev) but we need better than King, Joe Rookie and Q. I don't consider that serviceable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SSG Posted March 21, 2018 Share Posted March 21, 2018 46 minutes ago, CWood21 said: I think you're making the point against your own argument. You don't need elite CB play, you need serviceable play. There is a large gap between "serviceable" and what we've got. Last year we had more talent in the secondary and had something that was a long ways form serviceable. While I don't think you need "elite" play, you do need quality play. With a bunch of practice squad caliber CBs, we have a lot of work to do at the CB position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shanedorf Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 From Jason Wilde at Journal Times: Das Gute talking about drafting for Pettine's defense http://journaltimes.com/sports/football/packers-team-working-all-angles-to-improve-defense/article_1e95e46d-0139-5783-95ae-76368b92292d.html ...While there are clear needs – outside linebacker and cornerback – Gute doesn’t have to commit to a certain type of player because of a scheme change. “Back then, we were going from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and quite frankly, at that time, there wasn’t as much sub-packaging back then (as there is now),” said Gutekunst. "Now, the way (Pettine) may use percentages and different packages on the field, (that) may change a little bit. But the pieces, I don’t know if they’re changing as significantly as they did back in 2009.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexGreen#20 Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, Shanedorf said: From Jason Wilde at Journal Times: Das Gute talking about drafting for Pettine's defense http://journaltimes.com/sports/football/packers-team-working-all-angles-to-improve-defense/article_1e95e46d-0139-5783-95ae-76368b92292d.html ...While there are clear needs – outside linebacker and cornerback – Gute doesn’t have to commit to a certain type of player because of a scheme change. “Back then, we were going from a 4-3 to a 3-4, and quite frankly, at that time, there wasn’t as much sub-packaging back then (as there is now),” said Gutekunst. "Now, the way (Pettine) may use percentages and different packages on the field, (that) may change a little bit. But the pieces, I don’t know if they’re changing as significantly as they did back in 2009.” Would love to be a fly in that draft room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannondale Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 Would be nice if someone would write articles that weren't geared toward the 12 year old Packer fan. The Randall, Burnett and Thomas mentions are stupid at best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacReady Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 7 hours ago, AlexGreen#20 said: Would love to be a fly in that draft room. Why not a person in that room? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leader Posted March 26, 2018 Share Posted March 26, 2018 1 hour ago, HorizontoZenith said: Why not a person in that room? Good observation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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