holyghost Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 18 hours ago, NightTrainLane said: That occured to me as well. We have a bunch of picks this year so I expect a bunch of moves during the draft including some trade ups too with those two 5ths and four 6ths we have. As we get into the mid rds (2-4) if we see a guy we want I think we're in a good place to make moves for him. Possibly (to this and the first quoted post), but there is a limit to how many guys you can draft and have on a roster only to sit and develop. Most guys have to contribute. I want to focus less on trade ups or trade backs and instead let's hope we pick well and get guys who legitimately belong on the team. And even better, beat out the vets on merit because they're better players.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 27, 2018 Share Posted March 27, 2018 28 minutes ago, holyghost said: Possibly (to this and the first quoted post), but there is a limit to how many guys you can draft and have on a roster only to sit and develop. Most guys have to contribute. I want to focus less on trade ups or trade backs and instead let's hope we pick well and get guys who legitimately belong on the team. And even better, beat out the vets on merit because they're better players.. But your goal doesn't line up with your focus there. If we scout and id guys we like and fit on the team and they aren't there at our pick then it makes sense, with # of picks we have, we would make moves. I would happily take the over on 2 draft trades from us, even with tough odds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazer026 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madleg81 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 Each time I see us signing these over the hill vets this is my reaction... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silver&Black88 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Madleg81 said: Each time I see us signing these over the hill vets this is my reaction... Maybe it's just me but the embed didn't work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 20 minutes ago, Madleg81 said: Each time I see us signing these over the hill vets this is my reaction... And i really don't understand why. They're here to provide depth if none of the younger guys prove to be any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madleg81 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 minute ago, oakdb36 said: And i really don't understand why. They're here to provide depth if none of the younger guys prove to be any better. People are assuming these vets are going to provide us depth and help groom the younger guys...that's assuming 1) They will even stay healthy long enough 2) What they have left is even better than what the younger guys have now and 3) Not every vet is an instant mentor becuase they've been around a while. I want us to add live bodies, not a bunch of patched up dudes who can break before the season even kicks off. Or worse, break during the season as they have been doing. Guys with injury history's only get hurt more often and recover much slower as they get older. I'm all for adding some experience and competition as long as they actually have the body left to be competitive at a high level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaKid7 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 If the Leon Hall signing makes you mad then you need to re-evaluate. At WORST he is a great veteran presence to rub off on all secondary guys like Conley, KJ, Obi, and probably another rookie or two. You also hope it doesn't happen but if Conley is injured again, under preforms or our other CB's don't show up then our DC knows exactly what he has in Leon Hall. I see absolutely no downside in this signing, I hope he doesn't see a lot of playing time because I believe a healthy Conley, Melvin, and rookie should keep him off the field but you never know. Welcome to Oakland Leon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Madleg81 said: People are assuming these vets are going to provide us depth and help groom the younger guys...that's assuming 1) They will even stay healthy long enough 2) What they have left is even better than what the younger guys have now and 3) Not every vet is an instant mentor becuase they've been around a while. I want us to add live bodies, not a bunch of patched up dudes who can break before the season even kicks off. Or worse, break during the season as they have been doing. Guys with injury history's only get hurt more often and recover much slower as they get older. I'm all for adding some experience and competition as long as they actually have the body left to be competitive at a high level. I'm not assuming anything. Leon Hall hasn't been signed to start so he's depth. At this point in FA, he signed for nothing. If the younger guys are better, he'll be cut. If he's better, we'll be glad to have him. What's there to lose? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaKid7 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 3 minutes ago, Madleg81 said: People are assuming these vets are going to provide us depth and help groom the younger guys...that's assuming 1) They will even stay healthy long enough 2) What they have left is even better than what the younger guys have now and 3) Not every vet is an instant mentor becuase they've been around a while. I want us to add live bodies, not a bunch of patched up dudes who can break before the season even kicks off. Or worse, break during the season as they have been doing. Guys with injury history's only get hurt more often and recover much slower as they get older. I'm all for adding some experience and competition as long as they actually have the body left to be competitive at a high level. 1 minute ago, oakdb36 said: I'm not assuming anything. Leon Hall hasn't been signed to start so he's depth. At this point in FA, he signed for nothing. If the younger guys are better, he'll be cut. If he's better, we'll be glad to have him. What's there to lose? Also where are all of the young, healthy, promising, in our price range CB's on the market? I must be looking right past them, we should just sign all of those guys right? Take the Leon Hall signing for what it actually is, not what you think it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madleg81 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 2 minutes ago, CaliforniaKid7 said: Also where are all of the young, healthy, promising, in our price range CB's on the market? I must be looking right past them, we should just sign all of those guys right? Take the Leon Hall signing for what it actually is, not what you think it is. The guy is on his 4th team in 5yrs becuase he can't stay healthy. Health was already a concern for this team last year so bring in a guy who has not been able to stay healthy? This helps our depth how? And where are the promising young CB's ummm the draft....or keeping one of our own like TJ. What's the point of finding gems in the draft if we don't want to pay up to keep them. I'd trade in Hall, Gilchrest and Nelson all in for Carrie and go find some young, hungry talent in the draft. And I hate when people say, "he's brought in because he knows the system", like other players aren't able to learn new systems. That's what coaching is for...to teach guys. So what if a guy "knows the system" if he's gonna be watching from the sidelines or on IR. You all can like what we've brought in, I'm free to feel the opposite. But when these guys are dropping like flies throughout minicamp, preseason and if they make it long enough, during the season don't be surprised. Either coach up the young guys, bring in players that will actually help this team on the field or find new blood in the draft and or undrafted rookies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaliforniaKid7 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 minute ago, Madleg81 said: The guy is on his 4th team in 5yrs becuase he can't stay healthy. Health was already a concern for this team last year so bring in a guy who has not been able to stay healthy? This helps our depth how? And where are the promising young CB's ummm the draft....or keeping one of our own like TJ. What's the point of finding gems in the draft if we don't want to pay up to keep them. I'd trade in Hall, Gilchrest and Nelson all in for Carrie and go find some young, hungry talent in the draft. And I hate when people say, "he's brought in because he knows the system", like other players aren't able to learn new systems. That's what coaching is for...to teach guys. So what if a guy "knows the system" if he's gonna be watching from the sidelines or on IR. You all can like what we've brought in, I'm free to feel the opposite. But when these guys are dropping like flies throughout minicamp, preseason and if they make it long enough, during the season don't be surprised. Either coach up the young guys, bring in players that will actually help this team on the field or find new blood in the draft and or undrafted rookies. I completely agree with all of the points you're making but it's not that simple to just "coach up the young guys". If Leon Hall is playing significant snaps (or even on the team) come week one then I will be in the same camp as you. But for now, I am looking at this for what it is. A cheap signing (assuming 1 yr min). You can hate the saying about brining in players who know the system but it's a true statement, especially with a brand new coaching staff that has never coached together or the majority of the players they are coaching. It's complicated and any advantage you can gain to make that transition go smoother you have to take. You can trade Gilchrest, Hall, and Nelson for Carrie all you want but you'd still be a few million dollars short to just pay one year of his salary. He priced himself out of our price range, it happens. Funny you didn't mention Rashaan Melvin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 We signed Melvin to replace Carrie, and he came cheaper. Hall, Gilchrist and Nelson probably don't add up to what Carrie signed for. Pretty sure we'll be drafting DBs as well. What you don't seem to get is if they drop like flies, it won't be a big deal because they're just camp competition. No one thinks they're going to make a major difference but it's better than just relying on McDonald, Hamilton and the rest of the unknown at the bottom of our depth chart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Madleg81 Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, CaliforniaKid7 said: I completely agree with all of the points you're making but it's not that simple to just "coach up the young guys". If Leon Hall is playing significant snaps (or even on the team) come week one then I will be in the same camp as you. But for now, I am looking at this for what it is. A cheap signing (assuming 1 yr min). You can hate the saying about brining in players who know the system but it's a true statement, especially with a brand new coaching staff that has never coached together or the majority of the players they are coaching. It's complicated and any advantage you can gain to make that transition go smoother you have to take. You can trade Gilchrest, Hall, and Nelson for Carrie all you want but you'd still be a few million dollars short to just pay one year of his salary. He priced himself out of our price range, it happens. Funny you didn't mention Rashaan Melvin. I didn't metion Melvin because he's the one addition to our secondary that I actually like and I'm hoping we got at a bargain. A part of me feels when these old school coaches come back in the fold, their tendancy is let's get the band back together and look for guys we know. I get it and I get the fact that coaches can't be every where at once, so having vets can help with the one on one and guidance part. But if these guys are going to struggle keeping their bodies together to even be out on the field and in practice, not sure how that helps. Plus, Reggie structures a lot of these contracts very incentive laden, so are guys going to be more focused trying to meet clauses in their contract so they can support their families more so than helping another young guy with his reps? That's always my concern and is why I made the statement not every vet is looking to be a mentor....unless they're spot on the roster is secure than most are fighting for their jobs just as much as the next guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightTrainLane Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 33 minutes ago, Madleg81 said: I didn't metion Melvin because he's the one addition to our secondary that I actually like and I'm hoping we got at a bargain. A part of me feels when these old school coaches come back in the fold, their tendancy is let's get the band back together and look for guys we know. I get it and I get the fact that coaches can't be every where at once, so having vets can help with the one on one and guidance part. But if these guys are going to struggle keeping their bodies together to even be out on the field and in practice, not sure how that helps. Plus, Reggie structures a lot of these contracts very incentive laden, so are guys going to be more focused trying to meet clauses in their contract so they can support their families more so than helping another young guy with his reps? That's always my concern and is why I made the statement not every vet is looking to be a mentor....unless they're spot on the roster is secure than most are fighting for their jobs just as much as the next guy. No, most of the vets we brought in are on min or just over that deals and any bonuses are workout bonuses. If the coaches are saying they are bringing in competition and leaders that know the system in the media than that is what they are saying in the sales pitches as well. These guys know the business. They know their value is increased because of the experience they pass on. If they didn't have that then they would just be a 30yr old UDFA and wouldn't even get a visit. Yes, they want to make the team but they are also brought in because they know the system and coaches, are men with yrs in the league that can lead by example, even if it's just offseason or from IR and can provide insurance if we need them to play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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