***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[diamondbull424]

21 hours ago, fretgod99 said:

I indicated what her last statement was in one of the sentences right before you bolded. Her saying she can’t see beyond her death is, again, ambiguous. Is she unable to see anything beyond her death or is she unable to see her future continuing beyond that point? Also, you’re assuming she’s ever seen definite futures of anything, rather than possibilities. There’s no real support for that, either. She could see possibilities and winnow away the undesirable outcomes by taking certain actions, thereby affecting the future, just like Strange on Titan. But if all roads lead to one outcome, regardless of the number of possible routes (such as with her death), she cannot change what happens.

Saying she only sees possibilities of Strange’s future (beyond her death) is basically exactly what Strange did on Titan; he looked at 14M possibilities of the future, including those beyond his death. So there you go, we just demonstrated that what Strange did is the same thing TSS did.

1. I’m not assuming this. She literally states that she has saw multiple (horrible) futures and prevented them.

She also states that she has not been able to see Strange’s future, but only his possibilities. She makes the distinction between the two ethereal concepts of “Future” and “possibility”. As what would be the difference between them otherwise?

Becausd if a future can be changed then it was only a possibility. It was not a “true” future.

She could not see Strange’s future just like she could not see beyond the point of HER future. This logically means that the user of the time stone has a limit to the futures that it can see.

Do we think this limit is an inherent weakness of the stone or do we think it’s an inherent weakness of the user?

And if it’s an inherent weakness of the user, what are the only variables that would influence the users lack of omniscience?

2. Now this is an assumption you are making. Again she has distinguished between “possibility” and “future” as concepts. She does it within the same sentence as well so that we cannot question the distinction she has made. 

She does see Strange’s possibilities, that’s not arguable. But what is a possibility? Let’s define.

Quote

1: the condition or fact of being possible

2: archaic : one's utmost power, capacity, or ability 

3: something that is possible 

4: potential or prospective value —usually used in plural  

• the house had great possibilities

 

She explicitly says she does not see his FUTURE, only sees what his capacity could be. She speaks as a mother to a dying child. Or a teacher to a graduating youth that is soon to face the real world:

Quote

TAO: You wonder what I see in your future?

Strange: No... Yes.

TAO: I never saw your future. Only it’s possibilities...

... You have such a capacity for goodness. You ALWAYS excelled. But not because you crave success, but because of your fear of failure.

==========

(As an aside: Remember that she initially didn’t admit Strange into the temple because of her failures to recognize Kaecilius as a threat.

Baron Mordo mentions to Strange in his sparring match that Kaecilius was once a man similar to Strange. 

It’s very likely that The Ancient One studied Strange’s past and potential futures up to THIS MOMENT before re-admitting him. 

Her major conclusion between Kaecilius and him being that Kaecilius succeeded because of his desire for success, while Strange succeed because of his fear of failure. This different motivation being a great part of the reason she not only admitted him, but took such a strong motivation in Strange’s training and development)

Quote

Strange: That’s what made me a great doctor.

TAO: That’s precisely what kept you from Greatness... arrogance and fear still keep you from learning the simplest and most significant lesson of all.

Strange: Which is?

TAO: It’s not about you...

... When you came to me you asked me how I was able to heal Jonathan Pangborn... I didn’t. He channels dimensional energy directly into his own body.

Strange: He uses magic to walk?

TAO: Constantly... He had a choice. To return to his own life or to serve something greater than himself.

Strange: So I could have my hands back again, my old life?

TAO: You could. And the world would be all the lesser for it...

=========

(Another aside: This is where the possibilities part of this comes into play.

As I stated above, she likely use me the time stone to look at Strange before agreeing to accept him as a candidate. She never saw his future. But only his possibilities. Strange at this point in the movie is at a crossroad. He can either quit magic and go back to being a doctor OR he could continue on as a Sorcerer with greatness as his potential. His potential greatness is an assumption she can make based off his past as one of the greatest doctors in the world and as well as his advanced acceleration in the magical arts. 

But those are his possibilities. And she is spending the last moments of her existence trying to influence him to act for the greater good and not for his own selfish reasons. Because without her in the picture, Strange is our last hope.)

Quote

TAO: I hated drawing power from the dark dimension. But as you well know, sometimes one must break the rules in order to serve the greater good.

Strange: Mordo won’t see it that way.

TAO: Mordo’s Soul is rigid and unmovable. It’s forged by the fires of his youth. He needs your flexibility. Just as you need his strength. Only together do you stand a chance at defeating Dormammu.

Strange: I’m not ready.

TAO: No one ever is. We don’t get to choose our time...

Death is what gives life meaning. To know your days are numbered, your time is short.

You’d think after all this time I’d be ready. But look at me. Stretching one moment out into a thousand just so that I can watch the snow.

========

(last aside: Her final point to Strange is that just as it is in her nature to abhor using Dormammu’s chaos energy, she still uses it for the good of humanity. She says that because like Pangborn, Strange has just as much potential for selfishness as he does for greatness (his possibilities). But for the greater good of humanity, he has to put his selfishness aside to be great. That even though he’s not ready to do so, no one ever is ready. 

She launches into her speech about the meaning of life because of this. She is attempting to counsel Strange on things that he would sacrifice his selfishness for. For her it’s something as simple as conversing with a pupil and watching for snow. For Strange he needs to move past fear of failure as his supreme motivator and move to a love of life as his supreme motivator. This is the last battle the Ancient One faces before she dies. The battle to get her greatest pupil ever to realize his potential before it’s too late.

3. The major difference being that all the evidence supports The Ancient One not being able to see past the moments of her own death. If she had, she would be able to see Strange’s future and not simply his possibilities, the defining choices he would have to make. 

Similarly if Strange is killed by Thanos, seeing beyond his death SHOULD BE impossible, given the rules. But hey, the MCU doesn’t always seem particularly focused on continuity errors either. This one is just a REALLY annoying because as opposed to being just attention to detail, it completely forces us to ignore everything that we learn about magic in Doctor Strange. Just saying.??‍♀️

Edited May 10, 2018 by diamondbull424

[diamondbull424]

4 hours ago, Manny/Patrick said:

Rose Mcgowen

This wins the thread!!!!???

I’ll be honest, I read this and did not really get it at first. I thought, “who is Rose Mcgowen” and how is she relevant to the marvel universe...

Then I remembered that’s the chick that took down the once thought to be unstoppable Harvey Weinstein and started the #metoo cultural revolution.

... Yeah, I’m an idiot.?

Captain Marvel is definitely about to Weinstein, Thanos! All the other evil villains about to be like... metoo????

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, theJ said:

I took it to mean that because her death was inevitable (and thus loses the stone), she was no longer able to control the future to one possibility or certainty.  But she could still his potential futures.  Not that the stone wasn't work correctly.

Just like with Strange in IW, i took his lines to mean that because he had to "die" (and thus lose the stone), he can't control the future to one possibility or certainty.  That he did what he had to do to maybe get to that one possibility of winning but nothing was certain.

I don’t know. My brain is beginning to burn out from being the only one in my realm (does that make me Dormammu?) here.

I don’t disagree that this is possible, it’s just the evidence seems more favorable elsewhere IMO.

Our Doctor Strange narrative seems to liken time to that we see in the Matrix Reloaded’s Architect scene. With the time stone viewing of outcomes as limitless, all potentialities are able to be calculated to determine “the future”. But time is only limitless to the Architect up until a primordial moment. For the Matrix, it is the above moment. The Architect can view all outcomes of all things except that from the primordial anomaly (Neo). The anomaly the either chooses to go back into the source code or to go back into the Matrix as it self destructs.

For The Ancient One she too is able to see all outcomes of time possible so as to see all potentialities of all things to determine “the future” up until a primordial moment (her death). Yet she too is at the brink of a choice that can determine the fate of all humanity. Either Strange becomes Doctor Stephen Strange MD or Doctor Strange Sorcerer (Supreme).

The evidence all points to her inability to see beyond her death, why?

A) She says she cannot see past that moment of her death. Some say this is ambiguous. But she literally says it, so I’m not sure how it can be made any less ambiguous.

B) She speaks of fate with the same powerlessness of a mortal trapped within time. To peer outside of time and see the end of all futures would make her (and anyone who uses the eye) beyond fate.

C) She has distinguished between “future” and “possibilities” as a concept. She has saw and changed other futures, but has not seen Strange’s future.

D) Lastly. All (good) narrative is built around a central theme just as an essay is built around a “thesis” statement.

For Strange’s origin, the thesis is our relation to the universe. We see this in three parts of the movie. (TL;DR just skip to the emboldened parts).

1) When Strange first comes to Karma Taj and is conversing with the Ancient One. She shows him maps of the human body (chakra, acupuncture, MRI). Before she launches him into Astral form for the first time this conversation takes place:

Quote

TAO: You’re a man looking through a keyhole...

You’ve spent your whole life trying to widen that keyhole only to see more, to know more.

And now, on hearing that it CAN be widened, in ways you can’t imagine, you reject the possibility.

Strange: No, I reject it because I do not believe in fairy tales about chakras or energy or the power of belief. There is NO such thing as SPIRIT. We are made of matter and NOTHING more.

*You’re just another tiny, momentary speck within an indifferent universe!

TAO: You think too little of yourself.

Strange: You think you see through me? Well you don’t. But I see through you!

*ASTRAL LAUNCH to prove him wrong

2. After seeing New York’s sanctum protector fall and engaging in an initial battle with Kaecilius’ team (launching the idiotic disciples into other parts of the world and trapping a dumb Kaecilius within a relic) we have a pivotal conversation with our villain:

Quote

Kaecilius: You are a Doctor?

Strange: Yes.

Kaecilius: A scientist...

You understand the laws of nature. All things age, all things die. In the end, our sun burns out. Our universe grows cold and perishes...

But the dark dimension... Its a place beyond time.

Strange: That’s it, I’m putting this thing back on.

Kaecilius: This world doesn’t have to die, Doctor. This world can take its rightful place alongside so many others, as part of the one. The great and beautiful one. We can all live forever.

Strange: Really... What do you have to gain by this new age dimensional utopia?

Kaecilius: The same as you. The same as everyone. Life. Eternal life...

People think in terms of good and evil when really time is the true enemy of us all. Time kills everything.

Strange: What about the people you killed?

Kaecilius: *Tiny. Momentary specs within an indifferent universe.

Yes, you see. You see what we’re doing. The world is not what it ought to be. Humanity longs for the eternal... for a world beyond time, because time is what enslaves us. Time is an insult. Death is an insult. Doctor, we don’t seek to rule this world. We seek to save it. To hand it over to Dormammu, who is the intent of all evolution, the why of all existence.

Strange: The Sorcerer Supreme defends existence.

...

Kaecilius: ... Because what the Ancient One hoards, Dormammu gives freely. He’s not the destroyer of worlds Doctor. He’s the savior of worlds.

Strange: No, no... No, I mean come on. Look at your face. Dormammu made you a murderer, just how good can his kingdom be?

3. The last part of this theme is found in the Ancient One’s death scene. I’ve quoted the scene ad nauseum so I’ll just quote the most important moment in terms of the repeated theme we see in both of the above scenes. Once stated by our “hero” and once stated by our “villain”. The Ancient One in this origin tale is the final piece of the puzzle:

Quote

Strange: I’m not ready

TAO: No one ever is... we don’t get to choose our time.

Death is what gives life meaning. To know your days are numbered. Your time is short.

You’d think after all this time, I’d be ready. But look at me. Stretching one moment out into a thousand, just so that I can watch the snow.

We see that newbie Strange and Kaecilius both see no value in time and thus no value in existence (which the Sorcerer Supreme protects). Both see themselves in relation to time as a “tiny momentary spec within an indifferent universe.” The Ancient One’s final speech is telling us that existence (life) has no meaning without time (death). Because simply put, a lack of time is what makes seeing snow that much more beautiful and meaningful.

If the Ancient One could truly see the moments beyond her death, then her death would have less meaning within the grand scheme of time.

If she could see all the way to the end of all things time, she would be “a tiny momentary speck within an indifferent universe” and nothing more. Her lack of sight beyond that moment is what gave that moment its final reverence. It’s the last thing that she could ever see. And for that she doesn’t want to be alone. She grabs hold of Strange’s hand for her final moments. She doesn’t want to die alone.

[fretgod99]

10 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

Also tyrant does not mean that your evil either.

Tyrant literally means “cruel oppressive ruler”. It clearly connotes evil.

[fretgod99]

5 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’m not assuming this. She literally states that she has saw multiple (horrible) futures and prevented them.

She also states that she has not been able to see Strange’s future, but only his possibilities. She makes the distinction between the two ethereal concepts of “Future” and “possibility”. As what would be the difference between them otherwise?

Becausd if a future can be changed then it was only a possibility. It was not a “true” future.

If a “future” cannot be changed (else it becomes a mere “possibility”), she could not have prevented any horrible futures because, per your reasoning, that would make them mere possibilities. If “futures” are immutable, she cannot influence them. If she can influence them, they are not immutable. Thus, they are simply “possibilities”. Future connotes more definiteness, which is why the word is used. But ultimately, it is no different than a possibility, otherwise she couldn’t change them. Perhaps futures are more likely possibilities, I don’t know. But they are possibilities, regardless.

[Calvert28]

36 minutes ago, fretgod99 said:

Tyrant literally means “cruel oppressive ruler”. It clearly connotes evil.

And Abraham Lincoln clearly tosses that shizz right out the window. Forcing the south back into the union and abolishing slavery at the time was seen as cruel and tyrannical. He literally forced his will onto the entire nation. He did not give them the option to secede when a great many chose to not want to be apart of the union. He is a prime example why that definition is wrong.  

[fretgod99]

4 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

And Abraham Lincoln clearly tosses that shizz right out the window. Forcing the south back into the union and abolishing slavery at the time was seen as cruel and tyrannical. He literally forced his will onto the entire nation. He did not give them the option to secede when a great many chose to not want to be apart of the union. He is a prime example why that definition is wrong.  

That’s an interesting take. I mean, it’s literally the dictionary definition of tyrant. Or, if you’d rather, a ruler or sovereign who weilds power unjustly or oppressively. Or, a person who has complete power and uses it in a cruel and unfair way.

Literal, textbook definitions of tyrant. If you want to argue Lincoln was a tyrant for fighting a war to free people from literal enslavement I suppose go for it. There are a number of people in the South who buy the Lost Cause BS who might actually agree with you. But the rest of ordered society is probably going to toss that argument aside without giving it much thought for good reason.

I’m honestly not even sure why this is the hill you want to die on. This type of thing is necessarily dependent upon societal viewpoints, that’s how evil is defined. Are you really arguing that someone who is willing to indiscriminately snuff out literally half of existence on his own pet theory that it’s necessary to save life everywhere isn’t going to be roundly viewed as evil?

Maybe, maybe on Titan you can make that argument with a straight face. But the entire universe isn’t in the same position Titan was, it’s not a generally accepted theory that the universe is in imminent danger, and it’s not like everything has been tried. He decides on his own, for every soul in existence, that half of them have to not exist, because he thinks it’s for the best for everyone. He then acquires the ability to do precisely that, regardless of what anybody else thinks, and it’s not like he has any authority granted from some source that gives him the right to make that determination and take that action.

Textbook tyrant. Textbook evil. That his character or story are somewhat relatable and compelling doesn’t change that. That his argument on some level might seem plausible to some extent doesn’t change that.

 

[THE DUKE]

I think it's safe to say that when genocide is your solution, you fall into the "evil" category.

[skywlker32]

15 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. Perhaps you didn’t read it because of all the text. But the MCU’s Doctor Strange, is where the concept of magic was established for the MCU. It gives us an understanding of magic as a manipulation of source code/dimensions within our reality/framework. It provides science to what magic is for our MCU narrative. Essentially a sorcerer is similar to one of the agents in the Matrix.

What other point is a “marvel comics reason” and not a MCU reason? Please explain.

2. You are confused. The Ancient One has stated that she has been able to view the future (prevented countless evil futures). Yet when it comes to Strange she has no ability to perceive his future, only his possibilities?

Why is that? Why is it that her omniscience of time stops when it comes to Strange, but not when it comes to the futures that she has prevented? What keeps her from having seen the future omnisciently in the past, but not when Strange comes along? What is the only variable that changes? Does the time gem stop working omnisciently? Please explain.

1. You were using characters outside of MCU to establish how time is traversed. I most definitely read it and many of those characters have not been used in MCU at all.

2. Here again, you talk down to me as if I HAVE to be the one that is wrong or confused. The part that you are ignoring is that The Ancient One has seen "possibilities" of Strange's future and that is exactly what Strange does on Titan. He does not have any one future for the fight against Thanos, but only possibilities. This may be because he would die on Titan no matter the plan and thus only saw possibilities of the future past that or that none of the possible futures that he is still alive result in a good outcome. It is possible that someone possessing the Time gem clouds the future of that individual. Thus, if Strange was going to get the time gem regardless, The Ancient One could not see a clear path to his future, but only possibilities. The same thing could be said for Strange and seeing the future of Thanos...Thanos must get the time gem, therefore Strange can not see the future, but only the over 14 million possibilities (or possible futures).

In the end we are all speculating, but you are talking as if there is no other way aside from what you are saying. You can't just ignore that there are other views and interpretations of what was said in the movies.

[diamondbull424]

6 hours ago, fretgod99 said:

If a “future” cannot be changed (else it becomes a mere “possibility”), she could not have prevented any horrible futures because, per your reasoning, that would make them mere possibilities. If “futures” are immutable, she cannot influence them. If she can influence them, they are not immutable. Thus, they are simply “possibilities”. Future connotes more definiteness, which is why the word is used. But ultimately, it is no different than a possibility, otherwise she couldn’t change them. Perhaps futures are more likely possibilities, I don’t know. But they are possibilities, regardless.

I agree. That a “future” and a “possibility” SHOULD BE one and the same. However, what we see is that The Ancient One defines them as two different concepts.

So to use a metaphor. Reading the future must be similar to being on a highway. If you are driving on a high way and you’re using your navigation system. You could literally move your navigation ahead to see where that route is to take you. THIS IS FUTURE. It’s a defined route that the course could take, if you allow it. You could always adjust your route to avoid that road, but you must still drive towards your destination.

However quite equally if one is on the highway and you see a mass of construction taking place for two new high way additions. Your friend in the backseat says, “governments supposed to be adding another two lanes to reduce traffic her during rush hour”. You ask, what’s the other one? And he says “not sure, probably just stealing our tax money”. THIS IS POSSIBILITY. It’s is an undefined course, we can not see these routes and where they ultimately end because they are not yet finished... and we have to continue driving. We will always be left wondering what could be.

So while we would like to think of “future” and “possibility” as two equal ethereal concepts. They do not have to be. Especially when it is established that they are two different concepts all together by narrative. NOW a narrative COULD have them be as one and the same, but like I said, it’s all about what rules you establish.

[skywlker32]

10 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

I agree. That a “future” and a “possibility” SHOULD BE one and the same. However, what we see is that The Ancient One defines them as two different concepts.

So to use a metaphor. Reading the future must be similar to being on a highway. If you are driving on a high way and you’re using your navigation system. You could literally move your navigation ahead to see where that route is to take you. THIS IS FUTURE. It’s a defined route that the course could take, if you allow it. You could always adjust your route to avoid that road, but you must still drive towards your destination.

However quite equally if one is on the highway and you see a mass of construction taking place for two new high way additions. Your friend in the backseat says, “governments supposed to be adding another two lanes to reduce traffic her during rush hour”. You ask, what’s the other one? And he says “not sure, probably just stealing our tax money”. THIS IS POSSIBILITY. It’s is an undefined course, we can not see these routes and where they ultimately end because they are not yet finished... and we have to continue driving. We will always be left wondering what could be.

So while we would like to think of “future” and “possibility” as two equal ethereal concepts. They do not have to be. Especially when it is established that they are two different concepts all together by narrative. NOW a narrative COULD have them be as one and the same, but like I said, it’s all about what rules you establish.

Per your "POSSIBILITY" definition, are we sure that this is different from what Dr. Strange did? That is my point of contention.

[diamondbull424]

14 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

1. You were using characters outside of MCU to establish how time is traversed. I most definitely read it and many of those characters have not been used in MCU at all.

2. Here again, you talk down to me as if I HAVE to be the one that is wrong or confused. The part that you are ignoring is that The Ancient One has seen "possibilities" of Strange's future and that is exactly what Strange does on Titan. He does not have any one future for the fight against Thanos, but only possibilities. This may be because he would die on Titan no matter the plan and thus only saw possibilities of the future past that or that none of the possible futures that he is still alive result in a good outcome. It is possible that someone possessing the Time gem clouds the future of that individual. Thus, if Strange was going to get the time gem regardless, The Ancient One could not see a clear path to his future, but only possibilities. The same thing could be said for Strange and seeing the future of Thanos...Thanos must get the time gem, therefore Strange can not see the future, but only the over 14 million possibilities (or possible futures).

In the end we are all speculating, but you are talking as if there is no other way aside from what you are saying. You can't just ignore that there are other views and interpretations of what was said in the movies.

1. What is the MCU based off of? Whether a director is making a movie based off of Harry Potter or one based off of the Bible and they simply put a “different spin” on it, it is still based off of another source material. I just combed through the entire source material to show there isn’t even a precedent of it ever being done.

So even if we assume they are branching off into unknown seas with their narrative (which I don’t mind or care about), it is THEIR narrative in Doctor Strange that establishes what a Sorcerer is and isn’t able to do. So even if we remove all the marvel characters and all the marvel stories from this conversation, explain to me how a dimension exists for large scale time oversight and then explain to me how we can PULL it into our dimension? I mean, if you’ve got a legit theory here that makes sense based off of the established Doctor Strange narrative, I’m completely down. As you can tell, I like a good debate and excellent theories.

2. You say I’m talking down to you. If that’s what you believe, I can’t stop you, but that’s not my intent. Absolutely not.

I will say that the difference between my debate with your POV and someone like @EliteTexan80 is that he is presenting legitimate examples of his POV and using source material to back that up. The amount of effort he has put into his POV is absolutely inspiring.

3. I agree there is all an element of interpretation and if one goes far enough one could say anything is unknowable. One could say “math is an unknowable concept” or “history cannot be proven” and on some level we would have to agree. With history it COULD be made up, it could be a giant conspiracy theory by those of the past to make us in the future look stupid.

And math isn’t actually a physical thing in the universe but rather just a made up human concept that we use to make understanding of our physical world. Sometimes our math concepts and understanding are even proven false over time, theoretically could more of these established norms of math be proven false in the future? We have no idea.

Heck, let’s take it a step further. Rene Descartes once made the ultimate discovery for which all existence is proven, “I think, therefore I am” and all existential principles are based off of that foundational point. But what if what I perceive as my thought is actually a delusion of some great god? What if all the existence of my life is but the fantasy of some much greater being? What if the other being controls my thought with the strokes of a much greater keyboard in some advanced game of Sims? Does that make my concept of thought any less real? Is my thought truly “real”? What is “real” and can I prove it? If I cannot prove it then does that mean I don’t actually exist?

4. Point is I speak as though my POV is true, until I’m shown reason to doubt it. Then that’s when the real fun begins. The debate of two well thought out POVs. Like Doctor Strange battles on the mystic playing field, I’m battling the mind of another, over a (FTMP) pointless concept, that neither of us should truly get offended by if the other person has a more established POV.

To be honest, in some Goku out of DBZ way, I kind of WANT to “lose” my debates. I’m literally not even taking any of this seriously, it’s fun. It’s a game. Nothing more.

[skywlker32]

4 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

1. What is the MCU based off of? Whether a director is making a movie based off of Harry Potter or one based off of the Bible and they simply put a “different spin” on it, it is still based off of another source material. I just combed through the entire source material to show there isn’t even a precedent of it ever being done.

So even if we assume they are branching off into unknown seas with their narrative (which I don’t mind or care about), it is THEIR narrative in Doctor Strange that establishes what a Sorcerer is and isn’t able to do. So even if we remove all the marvel characters and all the marvel stories from this conversation, explain to me how a dimension exists for large scale time oversight and then explain to me how we can PULL it into our dimension? I mean, if you’ve got a legit theory here that makes sense based off of the established Doctor Strange narrative, I’m completely down. As you can tell, I like a good debate and excellent theories.

2. You say I’m talking down to you. If that’s what you believe, I can’t stop you, but that’s not my intent. Absolutely not.

I will say that the difference between my debate with your POV and someone like @EliteTexan80 is that he is presenting legitimate examples of his POV and using source material to back that up. The amount of effort he has put into his POV is absolutely inspiring.

3. I agree there is all an element of interpretation and if one goes far enough one could say anything is unknowable. One could say “math is an unknowable concept” or “history cannot be proven” and on some level we would have to agree. With history it COULD be made up, it could be a giant conspiracy theory by those of the past to make us in the future look stupid.

And math isn’t actually a physical thing in the universe but rather just a made up human concept that we use to make understanding of our physical world. Sometimes our math concepts and understanding are even proven false over time, theoretically could more of these established norms of math be proven false in the future? We have no idea.

Heck, let’s take it a step further. Rene Descartes once made the ultimate discovery for which all existence is proven, “I think, therefore I am” and all existential principles are based off of that foundational point. But what if what I perceive as my thought is actually a delusion of some great god? What if all the existence of my life is but the fantasy of some much greater being? What if the other being controls my thought with the strokes of a much greater keyboard in some advanced game of Sims? Does that make my concept of thought any less real? Is my thought truly “real”? What is “real” and can I prove it? If I cannot prove it then does that mean I don’t actually exist?

4. Point is I speak as though my POV is true, until I’m shown reason to doubt it. Then that’s when the real fun begins. The debate of two well thought out POVs. Like Doctor Strange battles on the mystic playing field, I’m battling the mind of another, over a (FTMP) pointless concept, that neither of us should truly get offended by if the other person has a more established POV.

To be honest, in some Goku out of DBZ way, I kind of WANT to “lose” my debates. I’m literally not even taking any of this seriously, it’s fun. It’s a game. Nothing more.

1. MCU has taken it's own direction with narratives and concepts and are not constrained by the logic or narratives or concepts in the comics. Anything in the comics, unless explicitly noted as part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, should not be used to support a theory, as it doesn't exist in MCU yet (or may never). MCU is established purposely as its own universe and should be treated as such.

[diamondbull424]

41 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

Per your "POSSIBILITY" definition, are we sure that this is different from what Dr. Strange did? That is my point of contention.

So you are contending the Strange saw a road being built and didn’t know where it was going?

I will have to rewatch Infinity Wars again, so someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m pretty sure Strange said something along the lines of him seeing 14 million futures and only one that they “win”.

If he says that, then your above theory about what Strange did on Titan would be flawed. The reason being because if time exists like a highway/road/map (same difference I suppose) then if we plot 14 million different courses to a destination  and only one of them allows us to make it to our destination without having to stop for gas (just stating a random goal- like defeating Thanos) they are all potential “futures”.

However a possibility equally has potential, only we don’t have any clue where the road will go. It is not built. Based off of the PAST our buddy might say something he’s heard, but no one really knows. Also this route is currently not accessible, as it is being built. IF we had the time to wait, we could wait to see where it goes, but future is a highway/route that doesn’t allow us to stop and do that... in this metaphor.

[diamondbull424]

3 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

1. MCU has taken it's own direction with narratives and concepts and are not constrained by the logic or narratives or concepts in the comics. Anything in the comics, unless explicitly noted as part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, should not be used to support a theory, as it doesn't exist in MCU yet (or may never). MCU is established purposely as its own universe and should be treated as such.

You still never answered the question. If you want to ignore EVERYTHING about Marvel. How could watching time be made possible WITHOUT the time stone? Given the limitations of what a Sorcerer is provided to be in the MCU via Doctor Strange?

edit: not that I dislike these limitations, it gives some science behind what magic is and I think that’s an AWESOME concept.

Edited May 10, 2018 by diamondbull424