***Spoiler Thread*** Avengers: Infinity Wars

[Calvert28]

19 hours ago, MathMan said:

who is this again?

Probably someone Disney can use to massively eff up an otherwise near perfect series. She better not be the trump card. If the Hulk or Thor cannot stand toe to toe with Thanos no way in hell should she be able too. It better be a team effort rather then Disney screaming to everyone that women are strong and they are leading the way in social progress.

[diamondbull424]

On 5/8/2018 at 10:21 AM, EliteTexan80 said:

So, I did something in preparation for this response - I actually watched Doctor Strange again last night (part because my son loves the movie, part because it's a great movie, part because this conversation).

I think the crux of this argument comes down to Strange and his ability to reside in the Astral space. 

As we saw in the movie, Strange is flung there unknowingly by The Ancient One, but eventually develops the ability to go there at will - we see him project himself into the realm while he's sleeping to read more books and (most importantly to this discussion) we see him there after he takes a dark dimension knife to the chest. In the "real" world, Strange is near death - he tells Dr. Christine Palmer the extent of his injury prior to passing out. Meanwhile, his astral form is pretty much intact - he even advises Palmer in her efforts to keep him going. During surgery, he had to fight against disciples of Dormammu/Kacillius, and during that fight, his body flat out dies - Palmer had to hit him with the crash cart to get a heartbeat going.

This demonstrates a different paradigm to our TV analogy - in the astral form, he's not the guy with the remote, he's a completely different entity sitting across the room, not only able to watch the TV, but can watch the room and anything in it (bag of chips on the couch, drink on a coaster on the coffee table, fridge in the kitchen).

So, pairing that ability to witness surroundings in a separate plane of existence with the time stone's ability to traverse through various timeline of events allow him to witness the 14,000,605 possibilities from a position to where he's not impacted by decisions made inside or outside of the possibilities.

Now - key thing here is that through the events of Doctor Strange, he's repeatedly warned to NOT do this. At that moment, he was doing exactly what Wong told him not to do - which was mess with the natural order. But, this is expected from Strange - he's not a stranger (no pun intended) to breaking a few rules for the greater good, which is what ultimately drives the wedge between him and Baron Mordo.

Ultimately, he took multiple natural orders, collated the data from worst possible outcome to best possible outcome, and found the one that yielded the best results. He couldn't come out and say "OK, here's the game plan" because that in itself would alter the actions of Stark, Parker, Quill etc. He had to let their actions stay the course.

I didn’t forget about this response. Only as you can tell I have a much bigger backlog of responses to deal with (not just yours).

Now, let’s begin.

=============

It’s true that the Astral plane provides a separate consciousness that exists outside of normal reality, but it does not exist outside of time.

The Ancient Ones death sequence shows us this.

Quote

Strange: You have to return to your body now, you don’t have time...

TAO: Time is relative, your body hasn’t even hit the floor yet.

This is the key note mentioned. Also the fact that we can see lightning, but just much more slowly. Thus the astral plane is a place where time effects it much more slowly than it affects reality. Things in the Astral plane essentially exist in bullet motion (Neo/The Matrix).

Quote

Death is what gives life meaning, to know that our days are numbered. Your time is short...

You’d think after all this time I’d be ready. But look at me, stretching one moment out into a thousand. Just so that I could watch the snow.

The Ancient One essentially explains to us what the astral plane is with this line. The effects of time on it are simply slowed. In the real world, The Ancient One has died on the table, yet in the Astral Plane she has been able to hold a pivotal conversation with Strange that lasts much longer.

She dies on the table (the moment when her astral self travels out of her) and goes on to survive for an additional 4 minutes before the astral plane “perceives” her death and she disappears entirely. This also aligns well with the fact that the human brain can survive for up to 6 minutes after the heart has stopped.

So back to your points about Strange.

1. While Strange dies on the table as Christine Palmer attempts to treat him, he has somewhere between 4-6 minutes of time before the Astral plane would realize his “death”. Palmer revives him well before that point.

2. Strange studying while asleep is actually quite brilliant. If we assume that one Astral second equates to six “real” minutes that means he could essentially convert 8 hours of sleep into 120 Astral days of study.

3. Though it also seems time in the Astral plane can be manipulated to speed up as well, which explains why “time is relative.” It seems to depend on the enlightenment of the individual and the calmness of their mental state. The Ancient One being a master of the plane and calm upon her death, while Strange is still a novice (in comparison) and in duress. 

I say this because during the Strange battle, the astral bodies seem to effect the physical plane immediately. Knocking things over, causing electrical surges, etc.

=====================

Onto the main point. Our TV analogy.

Under this revision of the analogy to fit in the astral plane, we now see that it’s not a thing separate of time, but simply sees its effects on a smaller scale. Similar to how gravity still effects the Earth’s moon, but just not as much as it effects Earth. A man from the moon would still  be able to move on Earth, but only at a much more reduced rate. Same as a man from Earth on the moon.

So for the man controlling time as it’s herald, all of this is irrelevant. This individual exists in an ethereal realm beyond astral concept. Once the connection to this ethereal realm is severed by either turning off the remote (relinquishing the stone) or dying (Kratos) it is gone.

The astral plane thus has no impact on time’s realm (the realm beyond time where we view it). The man with his remote is simply the man with his remote.

Edited May 9, 2018 by diamondbull424

[Malfatron]

6 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Probably someone Disney can use to massively eff up an otherwise near perfect series. She better not be the trump card. If the Hulk or Thor cannot stand toe to toe with Thanos no way in hell should she be able too. It better be a team effort rather then Disney screaming to everyone that women are strong and they are leading the way in social progress.

maybe she will rewind time to before the snap, make Thanos a woke male, and then Thanos's snap will still destroy 50% of the universe, but only males this time.

all females then unite and live without conflict 

[ET80]

6 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

I didn’t forget about this response

Glad you didn't. Initial read through is solid, formulating my response - might be later on tonight.

[Calvert28]

Just now, MathMan said:

maybe she will rewind time to before the snap, make Thanos a woke male, and then Thanos's snap will still destroy 50% of the universe, but only males this time.

all females then unite and live without conflict 

So let it be written! So let it be done!

[Broncofan]

18 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

Probably someone Disney can use to massively eff up an otherwise near perfect series. She better not be the trump card. If the Hulk or Thor cannot stand toe to toe with Thanos no way in hell should she be able too. It better be a team effort rather then Disney screaming to everyone that women are strong and they are leading the way in social progress.

To be fair, when they announced Ant-Man, Dr. Strange, Black Panther & GOTG, most of the non-comic population went, "really?".    Ant-man still hasn't delivered (but hasn't whiffed either), and I thought Dr. Strange's origin story was the least impactful (until IW),  but I've kinda learned to just let the Marvel guys do their thing.   They've rarely missed in their choices of late.

I do hope they remain immune to Disney Exec influence - pretty clear a lot of their choices (wanting the happy ending in Rogue One would have been a freaking disaster) aren't the right ones.   Disney Execs can't help thinking about catering to a kid audience - when it's an adult population that matters most, and for which kids will grow to love if they're too young.  

 

 

9 minutes ago, MathMan said:

maybe she will rewind time to before the snap, make Thanos a woke male, and then Thanos's snap will still destroy 50% of the universe, but only males this time.

all females then unite and live without conflict 

 

8 minutes ago, Calvert28 said:

So let it be written! So let it be done!

You know once Captain Marvel does come out, there's going to be a lot of slashfics with this ending, as will some "alternative" movies in adult film lol.   You can claim copyright now if you are industrious enough.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Broncofan

[Manny/Patrick]

19 hours ago, MathMan said:

who is this again?

Rose Mcgowen

[Calvert28]

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

To be fair, when they announced Ant-Man, Dr. Strange, Black Panther & GOTG, most of the non-comic population went, "really?".    Ant-man still hasn't delivered (but hasn't whiffed either), and I thought Dr. Strange's origin story was the least impactful (until IW),  but I've kinda learned to just let the Marvel guys do their thing.   They've rarely missed in their choices of late.

Dr. Strange has a huge fan base and has many a time been the lynch pin of the world with him backing up so many teams. Ant-Man was an original and while he wasn't well known his story ties in incredibly well with the Avengers. Black Panther and GOTG I can understand the wuhhhh.

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

I do hope they remain immune to Disney Exec influence - pretty clear a lot of their choices (wanting the happy ending in Rogue One would have been a freaking disaster) aren't the right ones.   Disney Execs can't help thinking about catering to a kid audience - when it's an adult population that matters most, and for which kids will grow to love if they're too young.  

They are definitely not trying to cater. TLJ and every interview with it proves theres an agenda with these people wanting to preach and manipulate. And the fact they go out of their way to bully and buy journalists proves beyond a reasonable doubt they are not trying to cater.

5 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

 

 

You know once Captain Marvel does come out, there's going to be a lot of slashfics with this ending, as will some "alternative" movies in adult film lol.   You can claim copyright now if you are industrious enough.

Honestly I think the fandom and flair with Marvel movies is going to start slowly dying right after A4. It's been running for so long now something has to give and people are gonna get bored with it regardless of the choices. I don't think theres going to be an interesting enough story line or biggest interesting baddy that they can use to top Thanos.

[Broncofan]

17 minutes ago, Manny/Patrick said:

Rose Mcgowen

LOL savage. 

[diamondbull424]

28 minutes ago, skywlker32 said:

Those are all reasons outside of MCU, as MCU is separate from Marvel Comics.

The main thing that I see, as Fretgod pointed out, is that the Ancient One did see possibilities of Dr. Strange's future. That is also what Dr. Strange did in Infinity Wars. He saw many possibilities of what could happen.

1. Perhaps you didn’t read it because of all the text. But the MCU’s Doctor Strange, is where the concept of magic was established for the MCU. It gives us an understanding of magic as a manipulation of source code/dimensions within our reality/framework. It provides science to what magic is for our MCU narrative. Essentially a sorcerer is similar to one of the agents in the Matrix.

What other point is a “marvel comics reason” and not a MCU reason? Please explain.

2. You are confused. The Ancient One has stated that she has been able to view the future (prevented countless evil futures). Yet when it comes to Strange she has no ability to perceive his future, only his possibilities?

Why is that? Why is it that her omniscience of time stops when it comes to Strange, but not when it comes to the futures that she has prevented? What keeps her from having seen the future omnisciently in the past, but not when Strange comes along? What is the only variable that changes? Does the time gem stop working omnisciently? Please explain.

[theJ]

39 minutes ago, diamondbull424 said:

Why is that? Why is it that her omniscience of time stops when it comes to Strange, but not when it comes to the futures that she has prevented? What keeps her from having seen the future omnisciently in the past, but not when Strange comes along? What is the only variable that changes? Does the time gem stop working omnisciently? Please explain.

I took it to mean that because her death was inevitable (and thus loses the stone), she was no longer able to control the future to one possibility or certainty.  But she could still his potential futures.  Not that the stone wasn't work correctly.

Just like with Strange in IW, i took his lines to mean that because he had to "die" (and thus lose the stone), he can't control the future to one possibility or certainty.  That he did what he had to do to maybe get to that one possibility of winning but nothing was certain.

[D82]

You guys do realize Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong in her own right, right? 

[Manny/Patrick]

5 minutes ago, Desperado82 said:

You guys do realize Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong in her own right, right? 

To quote a famous teacher from a certain comedy network I don’t trust any....

nvm

[Calvert28]

6 minutes ago, Desperado82 said:

You guys do realize Captain Marvel is pretty damn strong in her own right, right? 

Uhhhh no not stronger then Thor or the Hulk. I have not seen any comics where she actually trumps those two in strength or power. Jean Grey with the Pheonix Force. Oh hell yes. But not her.

[Dr LBC]

3 hours ago, Calvert28 said:

Probably someone Disney can use to massively eff up an otherwise near perfect series. She better not be the trump card. If the Hulk or Thor cannot stand toe to toe with Thanos no way in hell should she be able too. It better be a team effort rather then Disney screaming to everyone that women are strong and they are leading the way in social progress.

Considering that Captain Marvel (it's a title and, realistically, a set of powers that can bequeathed from person to person - even if Mar-Vell the original Captain is Kree - same alien race as Ronan from the first GotG) is Marvel's equivalent of Superman - this isn't so much a "Disney creation."

We're probably going to get something similar to either a grab from the Miss Marvel storyline where her powers passed to Rogue or just something that's fairly common in comic lore period, where Mar'Vell passes on the mantle and powers to Carol at the end of the Captain Marvel stand-alone..  And for the record, Mar-Vell did stand toe-to-toe with Thanos in the comics.  And we're still probably going to get Adam Warlock thrown into the mix - my bet is he's probably going to fill more of the role of the cosmic entities though (because they're not going to plop Galactus, Eternity, Living Tribunal, Silver Surfer, etc. in just out of the blue) and they'll pass along some or all of his "leadership" of the opposition to Thanos to Carol.  Won't be surprised either if they do something where at least Strange (and possibly all of the heroes killed) ended up trapped inside the Soul Stone.