2018 NFL DRAFT DISCUSSION

[Woz]

1 minute ago, turtle28 said:

23 minutes ago, lavar703 said:

I still don’t understand why we gave up one of our fifth round picks when we dealt back? 

We moved back yes and got a late second, but we also got the 10th pick in the 3rd which is worth more than we’d usually get by trading back in round 2.

Or look at it like a three way trade:

• San Francisco got
  • A 2nd round pick (Washington's 2.12, 44)
  • A 5th round pick (Denver's via Washington, 5.05, 142)
• Washington got
  • A 2nd round pick (New Orleans's via San Francisco, 2.27, 59)
  • A 3rd round pick (San Francisco's 3.10, 74)
  • A 4th round pick (San Francisco's via Denver, 4.09, 109)
  • A 5th round pick (Atlanta's via Denver, 5.26, 163)
• Denver got
  • A 4th round pick (Washington's 4.13, 113)
  • A 5th round pick (Washington's 5.12, 149)
  • Su'a Cravens

[HTTRDynasty]

I really wish we had drafted Derwin James round 1, Guice round 2, and Harrison Phillips round 3, but I think we've done a solid job overall, mostly due to the Guice pick.  Can't complain too much when we addressed two major needs and got a possible LT or RT of the future.

[turtle28]

28 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

 

He doesn't fit our 3-4 Defense at all, he'd be limited to nickle and dime sets only.  He's a good pass rusher though, it wouldn't be a terrible pick but I think we could use some more depth in the secondary personally.  

This isn’t true, we run a one-gap 3-4 system like the Rams, Hurst would play the 3-technique in our defense just like he would in any 4-3 defense.

Remember when everyone said the Rams had to trade Aaron Donald after they hired Wade Phillips because oh my god Wade runs the 3-4 and Donald doesnt fit the 3-4! How did that turn out? Blah, blah, blah.   

We also run a 4 man front around 70% of the time and are in nickel most of the time and Hurst especially fits what we need in that package which is as many good interior rushers as we can get. 

[MKnight82]

3 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

This isn’t true, we run a one-gap 3-4 system like the Rams, Hurst would play the 3-technique in our defense just like he would in any 4-3 defense.

Remember when everyone said the Rams had to trade Aaron Donald after they hired Wade Phillips because oh my god Wade runs the 3-4 and Donald doesnt fit the 3-4! How did that turn out? Blah, blah, blah.   

We also run a 4 man from around 70% of the time and are in nickel most of the time and Hurst especially fits what we need in that package which is as many good interior rushers as we can get. 

It is true.  He's 6'1", that's REALLY short for a 3-4 End.  You can't compare him to Aaron Donald who is a freak of nature.  

I already mentioned he'd play in nickle and dime sets.  

[turtle28]

10 minutes ago, Woz said:

Or look at it like a three way trade:

• San Francisco got
  • A 2nd round pick (Washington's 2.12, 44)
  • A 5th round pick (Denver's via Washington, 5.05, 142)
• Washington got
  • A 2nd round pick (New Orleans's via San Francisco, 2.27, 59)
  • A 3rd round pick (San Francisco's 3.10, 74)
  • A 4th round pick (San Francisco's via Denver, 4.09, 109)
  • A 5th round pick (Atlanta's via Denver, 5.26, 163)
• Denver got
  • A 4th round pick (Washington's 4.13, 113)
  • A 5th round pick (Washington's 5.12, 149)
  • Su'a Cravens

Thanks Woz. Oh, and Darius Guice is going to be a better player than Dante Pettis.

[Woz]

31 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

But you don’t want players sitting, or is that only for non-QBs? Colt is not terrible, he’s not great, but surely capable of leading the team to some victories especially if our running game and D are improved if he had to. For all we know Rudolph is the next Brandon Weedon and a bust qb from OK St which does run a very, very simple passing system.  Hogan isn’t camp fodder, he has some talent.

Colt McCoy is a clipboard holder. To expect anything else from him is setting one's self for massive disappointment. He is not surely capable of leading the team to victories. He is questionable at best at that.

 

As for Kevin Hogan, let us look at Hogan's career in the NFL to date:

• April 30, 2016 - Kansas City drafts him in the 5th round (162nd overall)
• May 6, 2016 - Signs a four year deal with the Kansas City worth a total of $2.59M
• Sep 3, 2016 - Kansas City waives him, eating nearly $0.57M in dead cap to do it
• Sep 4, 2016 - Signs with Cleveland's practice squad
• Oct 11, 2016 - Promoted to Cleveland's active roster
  • Appears in four games in 2016, attempting passes in two
    • 12-24, 100 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT vs Cincinnati on October 23
    • 2-2, 4 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT vs NY Jets on October 30
  • Appears in four games in 2017, attempting passes in all of them
    • 5-11, 118 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT vs Baltimore on September 27
    • 5-8, 65 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT vs Cincinnati on October 1
    • 16-19, 194 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT vs NY Jets on October 8
    • 20-37, 140 yards, 1 TD, 3 INT vs Houston on October 15 (his lone start to date)
• Mar 14, 2018 - signs an ERFA contract with Cleveland
• Apr 6, 2018 - traded to Washington, swapping picks in the 6th round to do it (188 <-> 205)

 

So, Kevin Hogan is a guy the Chiefs drafted, evaluated in their training camp, and immediately cut. He then signs with Cleveland's practice squad. Not the Chiefs. So either KC didn't offer him a spot, he was so ticked off that they cut him that he went to the worst team in the NFL, or Cleveland was the only team willing to take a chance on him. None of those scenarios look good. Then, after two years with the Browns, they offered him a contract and then turned around and traded him for the draft equivalent of a bag of peanuts.

This is a guy who is likely a camp arm.

 

Even if they were valuable, McCoy is an unrestricted free agent after this season and Hogan is a RFA. Arguably, Hogan would have more value for the Redskins next offseason in hopes someone tenders him a contract in order to get a 5th round pick for him. Of course to do that, he has to play and show that his stint in Cleveland was more a fault of the Browns than him, which means Alex Smith either bombed out or is injured and the 2018 season is essentially lost.

[turtle28]

44 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

It is true.  He's 6'1", that's REALLY short for a 3-4 End.  You can't compare him to Aaron Donald who is a freak of nature.  

I already mentioned he'd play in nickle and dime sets.  

I’m so tired of explaining our defense to brick walls. We don’t have two 2-gapping DEs any,ore and haven’t in our D since 2014. We have 1 DE who two gaps and that’s Jon Allen/Stacy McGee, our other DE - DT when we go to a 4 man front - plays the same gap as a 3-technique DT in a 4-3. Its the same damn gap and the same damn position. Hurst, just like Donald would be shooting the gap and trying to get into the backfield to get pressure on the qb or get to the RB in the backfield .

Our NT doesn’t play zero-tech anymore on most - if not all - downs!  Both of our 3-4 DEs do not two-gap anymore!  We don’t be need two 6’3 to 6’6 3-4 DEs with size, strength and length to hold up two gaps and against double teams in the run game in the defense we’ve run since 2015. 

This is NOT Jim Hasslet’s 3-4 two-gapping Pittsburgh Steelers 3-4 anymore, we haven’t run that scheme since 2014. Our NT is a 1-tech, think Jay Ratliff in Dallas who was 6’4, 300 pounds. He’s shot gaps in between the C & G all game long, he didn’t take on many double teams, he split them just like Payne will do with his quick fist step and ability to rip and get in the backfield and apply pressure on the RB or QB.

https://www.turfshowtimes.com/2017/2/22/14693440/2017-la-rams-wade-phillips-defense-3-4-robert-quinn-aaron-donald

http://breakdownsports.blogspot.com/2014/10/football-fundamentals-one-gap-3-4-Defense.html

Read it, read other information about the 3-4 one-gap defense. There are dozen of articles on the internet explaining it. I’m frankly tired of people being so wrong about it when this is my 4th year explaining it to people.

[turtle28]

12 minutes ago, Woz said:

Colt McCoy is a clipboard holder. To expect anything else from him is setting one's self for massive disappointment. He is not surely capable of leading the team to victories. He is questionable at best at that.

 

As for Kevin Hogan, let us look at Hogan's career in the NFL to date:

• April 30, 2016 - Kansas City drafts him in the 5th round (162nd overall)
• May 6, 2016 - Signs a four year deal with the Kansas City worth a total of $2.59M
• Sep 3, 2016 - Kansas City waives him, eating nearly $0.57M in dead cap to do it
• Sep 4, 2016 - Signs with Cleveland's practice squad
• Oct 11, 2016 - Promoted to Cleveland's active roster
  • Appears in four games in 2016, attempting passes in two
    • 12-24, 100 yards, 0 TD, 2 INT vs Cincinnati on October 23
    • 2-2, 4 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT vs NY Jets on October 30
  • Appears in four games in 2017, attempting passes in all of them
    • 5-11, 118 yards, 1 TD, 1 INT vs Baltimore on September 27
    • 5-8, 65 yards, 0 TD, 0 INT vs Cincinnati on October 1
    • 16-19, 194 yards, 2 TD, 1 INT vs NY Jets on October 8
    • 20-37, 140 yards, 1 TD, 3 INT vs Houston on October 15 (his lone start to date)
• Mar 14, 2018 - signs an ERFA contract with Cleveland
• Apr 6, 2018 - traded to Washington, swapping picks in the 6th round to do it (188 <-> 205)

 

So, Kevin Hogan is a guy the Chiefs drafted, evaluated in their training camp, and immediately cut. He then signs with Cleveland's practice squad. Not the Chiefs. So either KC didn't offer him a spot, he was so ticked off that they cut him that he went to the worst team in the NFL, or Cleveland was the only team willing to take a chance on him. None of those scenarios look good. Then, after two years with the Browns, they offered him a contract and then turned around and traded him for the draft equivalent of a bag of peanuts.

This is a guy who is likely a camp arm.

 

Even if they were valuable, McCoy is an unrestricted free agent after this season and Hogan is a RFA. Arguably, Hogan would have more value for the Redskins next offseason in hopes someone tenders him a contract in order to get a 5th round pick for him. Of course to do that, he has to play and show that his stint in Cleveland was more a fault of the Browns than him, which means Alex Smith either bombed out or is injured and the 2018 season is essentially lost.

This is about as valid as me predicting that Mason Rudolph will be the next BRandon Weedon.

[Woz]

1 minute ago, turtle28 said:

This is about as valid as me predicting that Mason Rudolph will be the next BRandon Weedon.

Except we've seen both Colt McCoy and Kevin Hogan in the NFL. We know what they look like against NFL talent. The answer is not good. And please don't tell me about McCoy small stint back in 2014 or whenever. That's so far in the past it doesn't matter. Watching his noodle arm against 2nd and 3rd stringers in the preseason the past couple of years tells me all I need to know.

[turtle28]

15 minutes ago, Woz said:

Except we've seen both Colt McCoy and Kevin Hogan in the NFL. We know what they look like against NFL talent. The answer is not good. And please don't tell me about McCoy small stint back in 2014 or whenever. That's so far in the past it doesn't matter. Watching his noodle arm against 2nd and 3rd stringers in the preseason the past couple of years tells me all I need to know.

It’s hard to judge a qb when he’s not playing behind Nfl caliber OL and not playing with starting caliber wrs but think whatever you want. I seriously don’t care anymore. Sometimes this place is the worst, most in here hate our own players more than any other teams fans, it’s ridiculous.

[MKnight82]

2 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

It’s hard to judge a qb when he’s not playing behind Nfl caliber OL and not playing with starting caliber wrs but think whatever you want. I seriously don’t care anymore. Sometimes this place is the worst, most in here hate our own players more than any other teams fans, it’s ridiculous.

Then quit the message board.  Seriously your moping and whining lately has been ridiculous.  

[oldman9er]

10 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

It’s hard to judge a qb when he’s not playing behind Nfl caliber OL and not playing with starting caliber wrs but think whatever you want. I seriously don’t care anymore. Sometimes this place is the worst, most in here hate our own players more than any other teams fans, it’s ridiculous.

Hey, stop attacking Steve Young!!!!!!!  

[turtle28]

7 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Then quit the message board.  Seriously your moping and whining lately has been ridiculous.  

So has you and Lavar’s hatred for every player on this team. Most posters don’t want to constantly read how you all hate everything Redskins 

[oldman9er]

8 minutes ago, MKnight82 said:

Then quit the message board.  Seriously your moping and whining lately has been ridiculous.  

He's tired of everyone wanting to lay down and die.... and HE should leave????? bizarro world????

[turtle28]

https://www.profootballfocus.com/news/pro-why-rams-scheme-change-wont-affect-aaron-donald

My case for the #Redskins taking Maurice Hurst with their 4th round pick. He’s a poor man’s Aaron Donald who flourished in Wade Phillips 3-4 one-gap scheme playing the 3-technique position.