WCF: Warriors vs Rockets Thread- The Real NBA Finals

[dtait93]

7 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

Just to be a jerk, I'd argue that KD is clearly the missing piece superstar on that team that only won their 1 title to begin with because Irving and Love were both hurt in 2014-2015. They couldn't get it done in 2015-2016 without KD, and in 2016-Present they are practically unbeatable because of him.

Completely 100% disagree. In 2015-16 the only reason they couldn’t get it done was because Bogut got hurt for games 6 and 7, and Greens suspension in game 5. Up until that point they were clearly the superior team. They didnt need Durant to beat them at all, they were completely capable without him. He’s not a missing piece, he’s an overkill piece that ruins any sort of competitive balance.

[MWil23]

Just now, dtait93 said:

Completely 100% disagree. In 2015-16 the only reason they couldn’t get it done was because Bogut got hurt for games 6 and 7,

L.O.L.

Yes, Andrew Bogut was the X Factor/Difference maker.

Just now, dtait93 said:

and Greens suspension in game 5.

Green playing in games 6 and 7 makes that above completely irrelevant.

Just now, dtait93 said:

Up until that point they were clearly the superior team.

After 4 games the Thunder were the superior team to GS as well. Too bad it's a Best of 7 series.

Just now, dtait93 said:

They didnt need Durant to beat them at all, they were completely capable without him. He’s not a missing piece, he’s an overkill piece that ruins any sort of competitive balance.

KD is the best player on that team, period. Steph has an argument, but he's not better than KD. At best/worst, it's a toss up.

[showtime]

31 minutes ago, 11sanchez11 said:

Per Synergy the Warriors shot more iso shots than the Rockets did, 37 v 34 iirc. Of course that is because they can get them whenever they want and the Rockets can't do it as well. Also the Rockets scored 1.3 points per iso possession. Which is incredible. Kyrie has been the most efficient iso scorer in the league the last few years and I believe he has been around 1.1. It would also be the best offense probably ever in general. 

The Rockets got 3 fast break points and were terrible defensively. Probably should be more worried about those things. 

There was a stat that stated out of James Harden's 34 touches last night, he held the ball for 10 or more seconds 28 times.  I think the highest player on the Warriors to do that was Durant at 10.  Sorry, the numbers may be slightly off, but I saw those somewhere.  That's a pretty big difference and that's what I mean by constantly ball movement.  When Harden goes into that mode where he dribbles between his legs and is going to take a step back jumper, the offense is stagnate.  The other four players are just standing around watching Harden going 1v1.  There is no movement, no cutting, no nothing... just standing still.  The Warriors very rarely every do that. 

[MWil23]

4 minutes ago, showtime said:

There was a stat that stated out of James Harden's 34 touches last night, he held the ball for 10 or more seconds 28 times.  I think the highest player on the Warriors to do that was Durant at 10.  Sorry, the numbers may be slightly off, but I saw those somewhere.  That's a pretty big difference and that's what I mean by constantly ball movement.  When Harden goes into that mode where he dribbles between his legs and is going to take a step back jumper, the offense is stagnate.  The other four players are just standing around watching Harden going 1v1.  There is no movement, no cutting, no nothing... just standing still.  The Warriors very rarely every do that. 

Cavs fans be like:

 

[showtime]

19 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Completely 100% disagree. In 2015-16 the only reason they couldn’t get it done was because Bogut got hurt for games 6 and 7, and Greens suspension in game 5. Up until that point they were clearly the superior team. They didnt need Durant to beat them at all, they were completely capable without him. He’s not a missing piece, he’s an overkill piece that ruins any sort of competitive balance.

This is an interesting point, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying.  Bogut's injury was big at the time because he was a legit rim protector.  Once he went out, the flood gates pretty much opened up.  Draymond's suspension was big, but he did play the rest of the series.  Where I somewhat disagree with you - The Warriors were the best team without Durant over the two year span before he joined.  However, they weren't some unbeatable juggernaut like they are right now.  Obviously adding Durant to any team pretty much makes them a championship contender, but to this team... holy moly.  The Warriors cannot be beaten in a seven game series by anyone.

Just as an example, I think a healthy Celtics team could definitely hang with and maybe even beat the Warriors without Durant.  But the Warriors with Durant?  I don't think the healthy Celtics can beat them.

[dtait93]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

L.O.L.

Yes, Andrew Bogut was the X Factor/Difference maker.

Green playing in games 6 and 7 makes that above completely irrelevant.

After 4 games the Thunder were the superior team to GS as well. Too bad it's a Best of 7 series.

KD is the best player on that team, period. Steph has an argument, but he's not better than KD. At best/worst, it's a toss up.

The fact of the matter is, if you are capable of getting 3 out of 4, then you are also capable of getting 1 out of 3. Golden State was already clearly capable of this and did not need Durant in order to do so. In fact, I don’t even care that GS went out and got Durant. I don’t blame them at all and isn’t even what I’m arguing. What is lame is all on Durant. It would be like if Curry left Golden State to join Cleveland after he had them down 3-1.

[dtait93]

13 minutes ago, showtime said:

This is an interesting point, because I agree with a lot of what you're saying.  Bogut's injury was big at the time because he was a legit rim protector.  Once he went out, the flood gates pretty much opened up.  Draymond's suspension was big, but he did play the rest of the series.  Where I somewhat disagree with you - The Warriors were the best team without Durant over the two year span before he joined.  However, they weren't some unbeatable juggernaut like they are right now.  Obviously adding Durant to any team pretty much makes them a championship contender, but to this team... holy moly.  The Warriors cannot be beaten in a seven game series by anyone.

Just as an example, I think a healthy Celtics team could definitely hang with and maybe even beat the Warriors without Durant.  But the Warriors with Durant?  I don't think the healthy Celtics can beat them.

Yes, people forget how great Bogut was defending the paint for them. The entire series literally switched the moment he got injured. To scoff at him and the way he was playing that series you would have to either be misremembering or blind.

And I’m not saying Golden State was unbeatable which I think is obvious based on the 2016 WCF and Finals. What I am saying however is that they did not need him to win, but I also don’t blame them for going out and getting him because every franchise is always going to do anything they can to get better. My whole premise is that it is Durant who is a coward for choosing to go to a 73 win team that was 4 points away from completing the greatest season in NBA history, the same 73 win team that he had a 3-1 series lead on. If he would have gone to any other team it would have been a non-issue. Because of this I, along with many, many others, have 0 respect for him and see it as a tarnish to his legacy.

[RandyMossIsBoss]

^While I think KD is soft (and not just based on that one decision, just look at how he behaves with the media), his decision to join GS definitely has not tarnished his legacy and long term likely improved it. I really don't think KD would have ever won a championship as the alpha dog, but now he's on the verge of his 2nd ring in a row. I think he's the best player on GS, but it's a unique environment there where there really is no "alpha" or lead guy.

 

This may be a different story if just hopped along for the ride and got carried to last year's championship or this year's likely one, but that's not the case. He's been there best and more consistent presence the past 2 postseasons.

[J-ALL-DAY]

You guys are completely off with the Bogut injury. He was barely playing like 12 MPG and wasn't a big factor. In fact, even with a 3-1 lead, dude had a negative rating on the floor. The Cavs were outscoring the Dubs when he was on the floor. The reason the injury was big was because it forced Ezeli to play more minutes and that guy was absolute trash. Guy was getting taken advantage of left and right in the pick and roll and couldn't finish worth crap. Him and Barnes were just next level useless. 

Biggest swing in game 7 came off two plays directly against Ezeli. Dubs were up four and this guy bites on a pump fake on a LeBron three for no reason and LeBron makes all three FTs. Next possession down, dude is scared of fouling and backs up a bit and LeBron drills a three in his eye. Completely changes the entire game. 

 

[Texansfan713]

rockets will adjust game 2.  it will be 1-1 going to GS.  I think Rockets get a game in Oakland too. 

[showtime]

22 minutes ago, dtait93 said:

Yes, people forget how great Bogut was defending the paint for them. The entire series literally switched the moment he got injured. To scoff at him and the way he was playing that series you would have to either be misremembering or blind.

And I’m not saying Golden State was unbeatable which I think is obvious based on the 2016 WCF and Finals. What I am saying however is that they did not need him to win, but I also don’t blame them for going out and getting him because every franchise is always going to do anything they can to get better. My whole premise is that it is Durant who is a coward for choosing to go to a 73 win team that was 4 points away from completing the greatest season in NBA history, the same 73 win team that he had a 3-1 series lead on. If he would have gone to any other team it would have been a non-issue. Because of this I, along with many, many others, have 0 respect for him and see it as a tarnish to his legacy.

At the end of the day, I think people forget a lot of stuff.  Like 35 years from now, kids talking about the greatest players ever aren't going to remember the circumstances Durant left OKC to go to the Warriors.  It's just like now, a bunch of people don't understand why Kareem left the Bucks to go to the Lakers.  All they know is Kareem has 6 championships, tons of MVPs, scored the most points, etc.

The issue LeBron is going to have is that when it's all said and done, he's going to have a losing record in the Finals (unless he leaves the Cavs and goes somewhere he can legit win and I'm honestly not sure where that is).  

^That's just all said about the legacy of players.

As far as everything else, you make a good point.  The Warriors were the best team without Durant and with Durant they are unbeatable.  

[showtime]

2 minutes ago, Texansfan713 said:

rockets will adjust game 2.  it will be 1-1 going to GS.  I think Rockets get a game in Oakland too. 

If the Rockets go down 0-2, do you still think they will win the series?

[Texansfan713]

Just now, showtime said:

If the Rockets go down 0-2, do you still think they will win the series?

nope.

[dtait93]

23 minutes ago, showtime said:

At the end of the day, I think people forget a lot of stuff.  Like 35 years from now, kids talking about the greatest players ever aren't going to remember the circumstances Durant left OKC to go to the Warriors.  It's just like now, a bunch of people don't understand why Kareem left the Bucks to go to the Lakers.  All they know is Kareem has 6 championships, tons of MVPs, scored the most points, etc.

The issue LeBron is going to have is that when it's all said and done, he's going to have a losing record in the Finals (unless he leaves the Cavs and goes somewhere he can legit win and I'm honestly not sure where that is).  

^That's just all said about the legacy of players.

As far as everything else, you make a good point.  The Warriors were the best team without Durant and with Durant they are unbeatable.  

While 35 years from now you may be right, it’s just a shame for the rest of us that his decision is costing all of us basketball fans today the chance to watch competitive and exciting series.

[seminoles1]

46 minutes ago, showtime said:

At the end of the day, I think people forget a lot of stuff.  Like 35 years from now, kids talking about the greatest players ever aren't going to remember the circumstances Durant left OKC to go to the Warriors.  It's just like now, a bunch of people don't understand why Kareem left the Bucks to go to the Lakers.  All they know is Kareem has 6 championships, tons of MVPs, scored the most points, etc.

The issue LeBron is going to have is that when it's all said and done, he's going to have a losing record in the Finals (unless he leaves the Cavs and goes somewhere he can legit win and I'm honestly not sure where that is).  

^That's just all said about the legacy of players.

As far as everything else, you make a good point.  The Warriors were the best team without Durant and with Durant they are unbeatable.  

While I agree to some level the hatred will die down, the constant media attention and 100% worldwide coverage that the NBA now gets will make it completely different than anything that happened before 2000.  Durant ultimately made the right decision when it comes to his legacy as there's no way he ends up outside the top 20 all-time (barring horrible injury luck going forward) because of the multiple titles the Warriors will inevitably win, but there's no way those circumstances are completely forgotten.

Kareem left for his reasons and most people seemed to respect it, but plenty still hold Wilt Chamberlain's antics against him.