COUNTDOWN: Greatest WR of All Time

[warrenblue]

Rice

 

Not only the GOAT WR but also the GOAT overall

[mdonnelly21]

Makes you wonder based on the poll, Moss would have to be a top 10 player of all time at least in the eyes of many...

[LaserFocus]

On 7/17/2018 at 4:58 PM, ET80 said:

Jerry Rice - but I'll cop to saying that the gap between Rice and Moss isn't as big as people make it out to be. 

Rice is in a tier of his own. Moss in in a tier of his own - which is lower. Then you have the rest of the field.

The gap between Rice and Moss is still significant in this conversation. Rice was a better inside receiver, blocker, postseason performer, and gave 100% on every play. We also can't forget the comeback from the catastrophic knee injury, and the greatness Rice displayed at an age when players like Moss had long since retired. Also, if Rice had played his entire career under the same rules Moss did, his numbers would have been even better.

[ET80]

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

The gap between Rice and Moss is still significant in this conversation

I personally don't believe this, but can totally understand why people would say as much.

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

Rice was a better inside receiver, blocker, postseason performer, and gave 100% on every play.

I think we can counter this by saying Moss was a better downfield threat by a significant margin - Moss is still the only WR I've seen get behind Cover 3 on a fly, corner or post route. DBs would give him a 15 yard cushion and he'd still beat them by 4-5 steps.

Can't argue on the rest, but I'm not arguing Moss > Rice or Moss = Rice. Rice IS better. Just saying Moss isn't as far behind as people think.

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

We also can't forget the comeback from the catastrophic knee injury, and the greatness Rice displayed at an age when players like Moss had long since retired.

An ACL? Catastrophic? I wouldn't go THAT far. It was a bad injury during the time, but nothing too dramatic to come from. 

I'll acknowledge the age aspect (in fact, it's the keynote argument I take on when I discuss Rice as the GOAT, regardless of position) but - again - I'm not arguing Moss > Rice or Moss = Rice. Rice IS better. Just saying Moss isn't as far behind as people think.

1 hour ago, LaserFocus said:

Also, if Rice had played his entire career under the same rules Moss did, his numbers would have been even better.

Likewise, if Moss played his entire career with the stability at QB that Rice had, you can make a similar case. Not the SAME case, but similar.

[Uncle Buck]

On 7/17/2018 at 4:09 PM, NFLExpert49 said:

Don Hutson does not belong on the list. Being the best receiver in a 10 team league with no black players is a joke.

Rice is #1. Charley Taylor, Bob Hayes, and Paul Warfield should be on the list. 

The people who say Moss > Rice never saw Rice in the 80s. Rice in the 80s (relative to the era) was like Randy Moss on the Vikings if you also made Moss the greatest RAC receiver in NFL history in addition to everything else. 

Rice's career trajectory was similar to that of Michael Jordan; when 1990 hit, both men noticeably lost a little bit of the top end of their athleticism, but they were so good and so successful that most just ignored that. 

And then Rice did a good job of making people think he was some kind of overachiever, when in reality he was a freak athlete. 

2

I've been watching NFL football since the early 70's.  I saw PLENTY of Jerry Rice's games, and ALL of Randy Moss' games while he was with the Vikings.  Both of them were great.  I just think Moss was better.  You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

[Danger]

I mean if we're going based off pure talent, Calvin Johnson >> Moss every day of the week.

[Danger]

Just now, Uncle Buck said:

I've been watching NFL football since the early 70's.  I saw PLENTY of Jerry Rice's games, and ALL of Randy Moss' games while he was with the Vikings.  Both of them were great.  I just think Moss was better.  You are entitled to your opinion and I respect that.

But you're also a Vikings fan with their bias whether you realize it or not.

[kingseanjohn]

Based on the total package I'd go with Rice. But if Moss had RIce's work ethic, effort, and attitude, I think would've been the best.

[Forge]

6 hours ago, ET80 said:

ACL? Catastrophic? I wouldn't go THAT far. It was a bad injury during the time, but nothing too dramatic to come from.

I  think he was more or less talking about the insane recovery comeback more than anything. I think it was something crazy like eleven weeks or something? Made Peterson's recovery look like kawhi leonard nursing a quad

[Bobikus]

20 minutes ago, Forge said:

I  think he was more or less talking about the insane recovery comeback more than anything. I think it was something crazy like eleven weeks or something? Made Peterson's recovery look like kawhi leonard nursing a quad

Rice was extremely fortunate that the one major injury he got was still something that could be recovered from so quickly.

[Mox]

3 hours ago, Danger said:

But you're also a Vikings fan with their bias whether you realize it or not.

He's also said on numerous occasions Adrian Peterson is the GOAT RB.

As for the topic at hand. Jerry Rice is undoubtedly the greatest wide receiver of all time. No one else has a legitimate argument at this point.

[NFLExpert49]

15 hours ago, ET80 said:

I personally don't believe this, but can totally understand why people would say as much.

I think we can counter this by saying Moss was a better downfield threat by a significant margin - Moss is still the only WR I've seen get behind Cover 3 on a fly, corner or post route. DBs would give him a 15 yard cushion and he'd still beat them by 4-5 steps.

Can't argue on the rest, but I'm not arguing Moss > Rice or Moss = Rice. Rice IS better. Just saying Moss isn't as far behind as people think.

An ACL? Catastrophic? I wouldn't go THAT far. It was a bad injury during the time, but nothing too dramatic to come from. 

I'll acknowledge the age aspect (in fact, it's the keynote argument I take on when I discuss Rice as the GOAT, regardless of position) but - again - I'm not arguing Moss > Rice or Moss = Rice. Rice IS better. Just saying Moss isn't as far behind as people think.

Likewise, if Moss played his entire career with the stability at QB that Rice had, you can make a similar case. Not the SAME case, but similar.

I have always said cushions are a horrible way of trying to defend a deep threat. If you want to get smoked, give the WR you're going against 10-15 yards to accelerate, and only after he has done that, turn your hips and start your acceleration. Good luck.

Cushions can be a good choice for the quick-but-not-fast guys. Darrell Green's off-man was legendary. 

Also, Rice torched people deep all the time. He was the Randy Moss of the 80s, only in addition to everything Moss brought relative to his peers, Rice brought the greatest run-after-catch ability in history. The general consensus back then was that he ran 4.4 at 6'2" 200, which was similarly freakish for that era, and he had excellent leaping ability. Later on, some time in the 90s, certain people revised history just for the sake of a moral about "game speed" to claim he didn't run a great 40-yard-dash time, and a bunch of people started making up times for him, and they became more and more ludicrous with internet fans continuing to make things up. It went from "4.55" (which probably was about what he would run electronically, since everything was hand timed back then) to 4.6 to 4.7. I'm sure it'll go up to 4.8 soon.

And Rice was always happy to go along with the idea of being some kind of overachieving workaholic. His ego is off the charts and the only thing he loves more than himself is pretending to be humble and classy, which anyone who followed him throughout his career knows is laughable. 

Rice also always felt threatened by John Taylor, who physically could do most of the same things he could. But luckily for Rice, Taylor just played football for fun. Taylor just loved sports in general and to him, football was just another sport he played. 

[LaserFocus]

21 hours ago, ET80 said:

I personally don't believe this, but can totally understand why people would say as much.

I think we can counter this by saying Moss was a better downfield threat by a significant margin - Moss is still the only WR I've seen get behind Cover 3 on a fly, corner or post route. DBs would give him a 15 yard cushion and he'd still beat them by 4-5 steps.

Can't argue on the rest, but I'm not arguing Moss > Rice or Moss = Rice. Rice IS better. Just saying Moss isn't as far behind as people think.

An ACL? Catastrophic? I wouldn't go THAT far. It was a bad injury during the time, but nothing too dramatic to come from. 

I'll acknowledge the age aspect (in fact, it's the keynote argument I take on when I discuss Rice as the GOAT, regardless of position) but - again - I'm not arguing Moss > Rice or Moss = Rice. Rice IS better. Just saying Moss isn't as far behind as people think.

Likewise, if Moss played his entire career with the stability at QB that Rice had, you can make a similar case. Not the SAME case, but similar.

Agree with you about the advantage Moss had in speed, and leaping ability over Rice. But I don't recall Moss ever coming back from such a severe Knee injury the way Rice did, and Rice came back sooner than expected. In the nineties, we weren't as advanced in knee surgery as today. In terms of QBs, Moss played with elite talents like Randall Cunningham, Daunte Culpepper, and Tom Brady.   

[ET80]

25 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

In terms of QBs, Moss played with elite talents like Randall Cunningham, Daunte Culpepper, and Tom Brady.   

I'll give you a season and a half of Brady, but that's it. Cunningham was well past his prime and retired - before he unretired to put up a phenomenal season, and promptly came crashing down to Earth. This was more Moss (and Cris Carter) elevating a QB, not Cunningham resuming an elite career.

Culpepper could have been elite - but he had significant flaws as well, and he cratered out shortly after Moss left. 

[Soko]

15 hours ago, Forge said:

I  think he was more or less talking about the insane recovery comeback more than anything. I think it was something crazy like eleven weeks or something? Made Peterson's recovery look like kawhi leonard nursing a quad

 

25 minutes ago, LaserFocus said:

Agree with you about the advantage Moss had in speed, and leaping ability over Rice. But I don't recall Moss ever coming back from such a severe Knee injury the way Rice did, and Rice came back sooner than expected. In the nineties, we weren't as advanced in knee surgery as today. In terms of QBs, Moss played with elite talents like Randall Cunningham, Daunte Culpepper, and Tom Brady.   

It was 16 weeks (4 months) and Rice not only rushed back by sawing his own cast off (against doctor’s orders, obviously) but he cracked the patella in the same knee upon his return, forcing him to miss the post season. Jerry even said he wished he’d never done it.

Not really sure I’d use that as a benchmark.