Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[LeeEvans]

3 minutes ago, JonStark said:

I think there were significantly more wights in this week's episode, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

I'm honestly not sure how Benjen would be tracking the wights (which is why I said him showing up closer to KL would cause even more complaining). Does he have a sense of where they are? Is he staying just close enough to them at all times as to where he has never been seen? If he was tracking them, he been around during the 4-5 days the crew was just standing there in the middle of the ice, even if he just stayed on the outskirts because he knew he wouldn't stand a chance alone. If he was there, he would've rode in as soon as the first wight started walking or at the very least, Dany showed up. IMO, he was drawn to that area because he saw the three huge dragons flying around and I think that's pretty reasonable.

For the record, I do wish we did have more scenes with him and a bunch of other characters. I just don't think it's as big of a deal as everyone is making it out to be, much like which dragon the NK chose to throw at.

Yeah and that is totally fine. If it was just the only thing that happened that episode I probably wouldn't care as much about it but it's just the accumulation of things that episode and this season overall. There was just too many things that were stretches at best. For me personally it bothers me more than it bothers you and that is okay, I just think it's a definite deviance from where the show started. 

[JonStark]

1 minute ago, LeeEvans said:

Yeah and that is totally fine. If it was just the only thing that happened that episode I probably wouldn't care as much about it but it's just the accumulation of things that episode and this season overall. There was just too many things that were stretches at best. For me personally it bothers me more than it bothers you and that is okay, I just think it's a definite deviance from where the show started. 

I can see that. The aftermath of the Loot Train battle did really annoy me so I could see how they start adding up after a while.

[ramssuperbowl99]

1 minute ago, LeeEvans said:

Yeah and that is totally fine. If it was just the only thing that happened that episode I probably wouldn't care as much about it but it's just the accumulation of things that episode and this season overall. There was just too many things that were stretches at best. For me personally it bothers me more than it bothers you and that is okay, I just think it's a definite deviance from where the show started. 

I'd agree that it's gotten more blatant. People should try and minimize the deux ex plot armor plots whenever possible.

Judging the show separately from the books here is unfair to the show writers, at least in my opinion. They started filming this 6-7 years ago and probably spent a year or two in pre-production/casting/pitching the idea, so 8-ish years ago they were probably expecting GRRM to finish at least one book and have outlines and ideas for the last book in place that would make wrapping this show up right a much shorter putt.

[LeeEvans]

Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I'd agree that it's gotten more blatant. People should try and minimize the deux ex plot armor plots whenever possible.

Judging the show separately from the books here is unfair to the show writers, at least in my opinion. They started filming this 6-7 years ago and probably spent a year or two in pre-production/casting/pitching the idea, so 8-ish years ago they were probably expecting GRRM to finish at least one book and have outlines and ideas for the last book in place that would make wrapping this show up right a much shorter putt.

I definitely agree with putting most of the blame on GRRM. He absolutely and utterly failed to live up to his end of the bargain. The show writers were hired to adapt a book for a show not finish writing the last two books. It's ridiculous and GRRM has absolutely no excuses and if the series doesn't live up to his vision it is no ones fault but his own. 

[scar988]

2 hours ago, LeeEvans said:

I definitely agree with putting most of the blame on GRRM. He absolutely and utterly failed to live up to his end of the bargain. The show writers were hired to adapt a book for a show not finish writing the last two books. It's ridiculous and GRRM has absolutely no excuses and if the series doesn't live up to his vision it is no ones fault but his own. 

Exactly

16 hours ago, LeeEvans said:

This sums up what this show has become perfectly. That is something that really drew me in because I'm not huge into the fantasy stories and realness to Game of Thrones bridged that gap. Like you said, consequences don't really exist anymore. Jon is basically unkillable, Arya can run away from an assassin guild after killing one of them with no repercussions, Cersei blows up the Sept and apparently the religious fanatics just disappeared and had no problem with her killing off their leader. 

Some people don't care about that and just like the action, dragons and heroes and that is fine but for me the current seasons is missing a lot of what made the series so great to start with. I've talked about it plenty in this thread so I'll drop it but you're definitely not alone.  

There are some things that make sense. Arya moved to a whole other continent. Cersei blew up the faith militant while they were all basically in the Sept. Who would want to deal with her after that? I wouldn't.

[MacReady]

I disagree on putting all the blame on GRRM.  Blame has to be evenly split. 

The show creators should have waited until GRRM was finished, at least with Winds of Winter. 

Additionally, they screwed up a LOT of what GRRM had already written. 

They screwed up the Iron Islands by trying to make Yara the focal point of that whole thing.  I blame the political leanings of HBO.  I don't remember the books TOO well, but I know she wasn't as integral to that story as the show has made her out to be, and their attempt to make her some cocky arrogant lesbian heroin in a show loaded with the female empowerment angle was just bad.  Additionally, the show ruined Euron, cut Victarion as well as other important characters, and wholly ruined the Iron Islands subplot. 

They screwed up Dorne.  Horribly.  Horrifically horribly.  The show had MORE than enough material to go off of.  Doran Martell BAMF long con plan for revenge, Arianne Martell being completely removed from the series, the Sand Snakes looking more like a superhero cartoon group of villains than something fitting GoT.  Arys Oakheart being removed, Areo Hotah being turned into a token black character instead of the badass he was in the books. 

Refusing to adapt Lady Stoneheart. 

Adapt Arya's warging ability. 

If the show would have been more faithful to what was readily available from the books, it's possible - not likely, but possible - that they could have gotten a full season in before this one, which may have allowed for them to faithfully adapt Winds of Winter as well.

The fault is equally to be blamed between the creators, GRRM and HBO.  HBO could have made the ULTIMATE, best all-time fantasy story ever put to screen and they could have been remembered for the next 100 years as the most groundbreaking, influential television series ever conceived if they would have planned on, say, 12 seasons.  Everybody and their grandmother knows they would have made their money back on ancillary markets alone, and yet they got impatient.  They started too early and decided to cut and chop and rush the ending. 

Now what we have instead is 4 of the best seasons in television history and several more seasons of  above average television. 

And it really sucks because GoT won't ever be remade in my lifetime.  Lord of the Rings probably will be, Harry Potter probably will be, but the only network with the ability to make GoT is HBO, and they're not going to remake GoT in the next 70 years. 

[rob_shadows]

Quote

And it really sucks because GoT won't ever be remade in my lifetime.  Lord of the Rings probably will be, Harry Potter probably will be, but the only network with the ability to make GoT is HBO, and they're not going to remake GoT in the next 70 years. 

I never thought I'd see the day that someone complained about something NOT being remade on here

[scar988]

58 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

I disagree on putting all the blame on GRRM.  Blame has to be evenly split. 

The show creators should have waited until GRRM was finished, at least with Winds of Winter. 

Additionally, they screwed up a LOT of what GRRM had already written. 

They screwed up the Iron Islands by trying to make Yara the focal point of that whole thing.  I blame the political leanings of HBO.  I don't remember the books TOO well, but I know she wasn't as integral to that story as the show has made her out to be, and their attempt to make her some cocky arrogant lesbian heroin in a show loaded with the female empowerment angle was just bad.  Additionally, the show ruined Euron, cut Victarion as well as other important characters, and wholly ruined the Iron Islands subplot. 

They screwed up Dorne.  Horribly.  Horrifically horribly.  The show had MORE than enough material to go off of.  Doran Martell BAMF long con plan for revenge, Arianne Martell being completely removed from the series, the Sand Snakes looking more like a superhero cartoon group of villains than something fitting GoT.  Arys Oakheart being removed, Areo Hotah being turned into a token black character instead of the badass he was in the books. 

Refusing to adapt Lady Stoneheart. 

Adapt Arya's warging ability. 

If the show would have been more faithful to what was readily available from the books, it's possible - not likely, but possible - that they could have gotten a full season in before this one, which may have allowed for them to faithfully adapt Winds of Winter as well.

The fault is equally to be blamed between the creators, GRRM and HBO.  HBO could have made the ULTIMATE, best all-time fantasy story ever put to screen and they could have been remembered for the next 100 years as the most groundbreaking, influential television series ever conceived if they would have planned on, say, 12 seasons.  Everybody and their grandmother knows they would have made their money back on ancillary markets alone, and yet they got impatient.  They started too early and decided to cut and chop and rush the ending. 

Now what we have instead is 4 of the best seasons in television history and several more seasons of  above average television. 

And it really sucks because GoT won't ever be remade in my lifetime.  Lord of the Rings probably will be, Harry Potter probably will be, but the only network with the ability to make GoT is HBO, and they're not going to remake GoT in the next 70 years. 

If this show was 12 seasons and done the way you say, it would have been ridiculously awesome.

[MacReady]

Just now, scar988 said:

If this show was 12 seasons and done the way you say, it would have been ridiculously awesome.

There's no doubt in my mind that if they would have done this show right it would be crowned as the undisputed best television series of all time. 

[Oregon Ducks]

Just now, HorizontoZenith said:

There's no doubt in my mind that if they would have done this show right it would be crowned as the undisputed best television series of all time. 

And that is why I am so frustrated. They rushed the ending of a masterpiece that they started....

[Oregon Ducks]

People will bring up budget but I think a show like GoT is sustainable and added a TON of new HBO viewers all over the globe.

[MacReady]

Just now, Oregon Ducks said:

People will bring up budget but I think a show like GoT is sustainable and added a TON of new HBO viewers all over the globe.

The budget is the reason, but it's not an excuse.  They would have made their money back and then some on the DVD/Blu ray sales alone if it was the ultimate masterpiece it could have been.  Additionally, it's not a valid excuse when they're planning on making more seasons in the same universe. 

Complaints about travel time are not valid.  Complaints about the rushed product are entirely valid.  This season is rushed to the point of losing everything that drew people in in the first place: Slow-burning character development with amazing twists and turns.  Now, the twists and turns feel telegraphed and formulaic rather than groundbreaking and incredible like the Red Wedding. 

[Oregon Ducks]

[Silver&Black88]

37 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

The budget is the reason, but it's not an excuse.  They would have made their money back and then some on the DVD/Blu ray sales alone if it was the ultimate masterpiece it could have been.  Additionally, it's not a valid excuse when they're planning on making more seasons in the same universe. 

Complaints about travel time are not valid.  Complaints about the rushed product are entirely valid.  This season is rushed to the point of losing everything that drew people in in the first place: Slow-burning character development with amazing twists and turns.  Now, the twists and turns feel telegraphed and formulaic rather than groundbreaking and incredible like the Red Wedding. 

Do you feel at all like there's an element of causation regarding time travel from the element of rushing these last episodes out?  Because I do.

I mean, the times just about line up, and there's about as many plot holes as there always are, but it felt like a time warp compared to past episodes.  I think its because they know they have to get the show on the road.

Also, did they mention the raven when Dany left?  Because I've been telling myself she left before it got there just to line up timelines even better.  

 

Another separate thing I've been wondering about: the WW's could have frozen that lake solid real quick if they chose to.  But they didn't. Maybe NK was trying to bait them into bringing the dragons or just messing with them or something. 

[Calvert28]

34 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

The budget is the reason, but it's not an excuse.  They would have made their money back and then some on the DVD/Blu ray sales alone if it was the ultimate masterpiece it could have been.  Additionally, it's not a valid excuse when they're planning on making more seasons in the same universe. 

Complaints about travel time are not valid.  Complaints about the rushed product are entirely valid.  This season is rushed to the point of losing everything that drew people in in the first place: Slow-burning character development with amazing twists and turns.  Now, the twists and turns feel telegraphed and formulaic rather than groundbreaking and incredible like the Red Wedding. 

The Red Wedding changed endings for tv cinema. Ned Starks death revolutionized it.