Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[seminoles1]

1 hour ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

Total waste. No background on the mysterious spirals, why they were converting babies, why they had reappeared after 1000 years, etc. Just a total waste of the largest storyline of the show. Essentially, we got the series climax in episode three, the rest is just tying up loose ends and fan service.

I don't mind the spirals and babies. Those story bits were implied pretty heavily: they made the spirals because that's what the Night King was born (he essentially just stole that from the children as his symbol, similar to a house's sigil) in and the babies were from a deal with Craster to increase their numbers.

Now why they showed up again and decided now was the time to attack is definitely something I wish they went into.

[thrILL!]

2 hours ago, skywindO2 said:

Any of the human vs human and politics of the show has always been the most interesting to me so I'm relieved that it's a pretty safe assumption that that's where the show ends but for that to be end of the Night King still just feels like a letdown given the build up for him. 

This is exactly what Benioff and Weiss point to during the Inside the Episode that HBO showed right afterward.  

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

3 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Shireen is still alive. And I will murder anyone who says otherwise.

Are you going to burn them at the stake?

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, seminoles1 said:

I don't mind the spirals and babies. Those story bits were implied pretty heavily: they made the spirals because that's what the Night King was born (he essentially just stole that from the children as his symbol, similar to a house's sigil) in and the babies were from a deal with Craster to increase their numbers.

Now why they showed up again and decided now was the time to attack is definitely something I wish they went into.

I wish it was further explained how Craster negotiated with the NK to make that deal.

[JonStark]

22 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Sigh....so many peiple clearly think they know something bc they read or saw somethung on the internet and therefore must be true.  

On the subject of anti-climax.  Yes the show opens with a scene introducing us to the white Walker threat.  The show opens that way bc the books open that way.  Will the books end with the defeat of the NK?  Probably not. How do we know?  Bc we are currently waiting for "Winds of Winter" with "Dream of Spring" to follow.  WoW will almost certainly conclude with the battle for the dawn, with DoS turning its direction south to the Iron Throne. 

On the subject of prophecy - GRRM is an anti-religion atheist.  Prophecy and religion will almost certainly be meaningless in the actual story.  It's all a big red herring, and it's been beautifully set up.  

On the subject of why Arya - GRRM is a noted feminist.  The person ending the NK will almost certainly be female in the books. Why did the show choose Arya.  Well it wasnt done purely for shock value.  Using a misdirect with the audience is not shock value.  According to the writers, they have known since season 3 that it would be Arya.  Interesting, since GRRM was still very actively involved in the direction of the show at that point.  Arya being the one to do it was earned throughout the 7+ seasons.  She starts as a girl who desperately wants to be a warrior in a world where she is told her destiny is to marry a high born and birth children.  Her first teacher is a man from Bravos, the home of the house of black and white, and believer's in the many faced God, whose first lesson to Arya is about the God of Death.  Arya is then taught survival by story's ultimate survivor, Sandor Clegane, who has survived not only brutal torture and disfigurement from the hands of his brother, but also many battles, serving many different men, and ultimately never being loyal to anyone or anything, other than Arya Stark.  He teaches her that survival is about more than being strong, brave, cunning, skilled, it's about being willing to cross lines in order to just survive.  She takes that to the house of black and white who further her training.  Teaching her how to use stealth and subterfuge to defeat the enemy.  And that the God of Death has a price for us all.  She must become no one before she can return home as Arya Stark in super saiyan form.  In the battle for the dawn she uses all the skills that she was taught by her many different masters to survive and ultimately follow instructions of her first, what do we say to the God of Death?  Not today.

[seminoles1]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I wish it was further explained how Craster negotiated with the NK to make that deal.

Yeah, that's fair. It wouldn't do much to the story though IMO. We know it happened and it's just a tiny detail in the story of the Night King/White Walkers.

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

24 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

Sigh....so many peiple clearly think they know something bc they read or saw somethung on the internet and therefore must be true.  

On the subject of anti-climax.  Yes the show opens with a scene introducing us to the white Walker threat.  The show opens that way bc the books open that way.  Will the books end with the defeat of the NK?  Probably not. How do we know?  Bc we are currently waiting for "Winds of Winter" with "Dream of Spring" to follow.  WoW will almost certainly conclude with the battle for the dawn, with DoS turning its direction south to the Iron Throne. 

On the subject of prophecy - GRRM is an anti-religion atheist.  Prophecy and religion will almost certainly be meaningless in the actual story.  It's all a big red herring, and it's been beautifully set up.  

On the subject of why Arya - GRRM is a noted feminist.  The person ending the NK will almost certainly be female in the books. Why did the show choose Arya.  Well it wasnt done purely for shock value.  Using a misdirect with the audience is not shock value.  According to the writers, they have known since season 3 that it would be Arya.  Interesting, since GRRM was still very actively involved in the direction of the show at that point.  Arya being the one to do it was earned throughout the 7+ seasons.  She starts as a girl who desperately wants to be a warrior in a world where she is told her destiny is to marry a high born and birth children.  Her first teacher is a man from Bravos, the home of the house of black and white, and believer's in the many faced God, whose first lesson to Arya is about the God of Death.  Arya is then taught survival by story's ultimate survivor, Sandor Clegane, who has survived not only brutal torture and disfigurement from the hands of his brother, but also many battles, serving many different men, and ultimately never being loyal to anyone or anything, other than Arya Stark.  He teaches her that survival is about more than being strong, brave, cunning, skilled, it's about being willing to cross lines in order to just survive.  She takes that to the house of black and white who further her training.  Teaching her how to use stealth and subterfuge to defeat the enemy.  And that the God of Death has a price for us all.  She must become no one before she can return home as Arya Stark in super saiyan form.  In the battle for the dawn she uses all the skills that she was taught by her many different masters to survive and ultimately follow instructions of her first, what do we say to the God of Death?  Not today.

I haven't seen anyone in this thread with the issue of it being Arya that killed the NK. It's the how. She had a complete mental breakdown and was surrounded by Wights in the hall. How did she get out? How did she sneak into the garden? The execution was poor, not the character who killed him. All of what you said is true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the execution of it was poor. In fact, the bulk of what you say only adds to those feelings. 

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

Just now, seminoles1 said:

Yeah, that's fair. It wouldn't do much to the story though IMO. We know it happened and it's just a tiny detail in the story of the Night King/White Walkers.

Yes, it is important. If Craster is able negotiate with the NK, why wouldn't other humans in the story to secure their lives? 

[BayRaider]

Too many people complaining. Did it have some flaws and maybe the ending could of been different? Sure. Good reason to look forward to the books, I’m sure that will be 90% different. 

However, it was a great episode, great battle, and I quite enjoyed it. This is top notch television that comes once in a bluemoon. Enjoy the episode for what it was and relax. I had a great time. I really thought every character might die at least once and my heart was pounding. 

[seminoles1]

1 minute ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

Yes, it is important. If Craster is able negotiate with the NK, why wouldn't other humans in the story to secure their lives? 

I guess I never saw it as a negotiation and moreso a desperate bargain from Craster to live.

I can see why people would like to see how that went down, though.

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

4 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

I guess I never saw it as a negotiation and moreso a desperate bargain from Craster to live.

I can see why people would like to see how that went down, though.

I think the most interesting part is how he is able to communicate with them. No WW or the NK, beyond a stare, was able to communicate with humans. I think it would've added a cool dynamic if people are actively able to scheme with the NK. Imagine Little Finger cutting a deal with him. Just adds depth to his character beyond just destruction. 

[Superman(DH23)]

3 minutes ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

I haven't seen anyone in this thread with the issue of it being Arya that killed the NK. It's the how. She had a complete mental breakdown and was surrounded by Wights in the hall. How did she get out? How did she sneak into the garden? The execution was poor, not the character who killed him. All of what you said is true, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the execution of it was poor. In fact, the bulk of what you say only adds to those feelings. 

There have been several complaints ITT about it being Arya and not Jon or Dany. And they did show us how she got out of the hall, as far as not showing us how she got into the Garden, firstly, they were misdirecting the audience, focusing on Jon trying to get to the Godswood, but being pinned down by the ice dragon.  All the tension created in that scene is bc we as the audience are waiting for Jon to rush in and save the day.  We then realize as the NK is standing there with Bran that Jon isnt going to make it and Bran is in serious peril and may be done for.  Arya is an afterthought (unless you're like me and wondering when she is going to come into play after what the conversation between her and Mel).  The show has earned Arya getting there by showing her the entire episode surviving, moving throughout Winterfell, fighting off wights.  On the hall shes scared.  She is seeing the true face of Death and it terrifies her bc she is still a young girl up against impossible odds.  Its Mels talk with her that strengthens her resolve and reinforces who she has become.  Again it's all earned. If you want to complain about the jump, men?  I guess you can try and break down the physics of it all, but that's really nitpicking if you ask me.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

I guess I never saw it as a negotiation and moreso a desperate bargain from Craster to live.

I can see why people would like to see how that went down, though.

Yeah AFAIK the entire premise of how scary the NK is is that you can't negotiate with him. Jon mentions this when they meet with Cersei. You can't negotiate with him, you can't do anything because he and his army have no fear of anything, and no self preservation whatsoever. They're coming for you and there's nothing you can do about it.

But somehow Craster was able to preserve himself and his "keep" by offering up babies to the NK to add to his army. I just wish we knew more about how that transpired.

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

2 minutes ago, Superman(DH23) said:

There have been several complaints ITT about it being Arya and not Jon or Dany. And they did show us how she got out of the hall, as far as not showing us how she got into the Garden, firstly, they were misdirecting the audience, focusing on Jon trying to get to the Godswood, but being pinned down by the ice dragon.  All the tension created in that scene is bc we as the audience are waiting for Jon to rush in and save the day.  We then realize as the NK is standing there with Bran that Jon isnt going to make it and Bran is in serious peril and may be done for.  Arya is an afterthought (unless you're like me and wondering when she is going to come into play after what the conversation between her and Mel).  The show has earned Arya getting there by showing her the entire episode surviving, moving throughout Winterfell, fighting off wights.  On the hall shes scared.  She is seeing the true face of Death and it terrifies her bc she is still a young girl up against impossible odds.  Its Mels talk with her that strengthens her resolve and reinforces who she has become.  Again it's all earned. If you want to complain about the jump, men?  I guess you can try and break down the physics of it all, but that's really nitpicking if you ask me.

When did that happen? No they didn't. She says "not today" runs out and doesn't reappear until she's in the godswood. She was trapped by literally thousands of wights in the hall. I don't think its nitpicking to bring up that there's no way she makes it out of there regardless of her training and skill. It's lazy writing. 

[thrILL!]

1 hour ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

Unless the NK can resurrect himself, I'm 99% sure that arc has concluded, or else why not save it for an epic triple threat match at Mania?

Brann disappeared into his abilities as 3ER and possibly did more than just scout using the ravens. Perhaps he had a magic showdown with NK that happens along the way and we’ll see it next episode. That would be cool to learn more about him but I won’t hold my breath.