Steelers vs Falcons Big 4 on Offense

[Hunter2_1]

Steelers, for me. 

[Ward4HOF]

On 8/15/2017 at 7:46 AM, steelcurtain29 said:

But Brown has more catches, barely less yards, nearly double the TD and a better catch rate (with less drops) the past three seasons...

 

How is Julio "firmly" the #1 WR?

Because, silly, Julio has started 4 more games than AB, yet has 767 fewer total yds, 10 fewer TDs, and 135 fewer receptions.  Plus, Jones was drafted as the 6th OVERALL PICK, whereas Brown was drafted in the 6th ROUND. Then don't get me started on the 5" height advantage that makes him better.

Plus, Julio was injured in 2013, and Brown's injury was 2012, so Julio has only dominated the league for the last 3 seasons, whereas Brown has for the 4, so that clearly...no, wait, that's backwards...ok, forget I said that. And don't even think about bringing up Brown's 5/50 streak...or being the only WR to ever have both 1000 return AND receiving yds in the same season...

Yep! The less versatile, less distinguished (2 AP 1st Team All-Pros vs 3 AP 1st Team + 1 2nd Team All-Pros), 'lower statistically'-rated player is FIRMLY the #1 WR in the game.

Like 43M said. Not that Julio Jones isn't in the conversation, and not that Julio doesn't have his arguments FOR being the best in the game, but acting like he's clearly the best, with no other WR even a possibility is just flat-out wrong. 

[Thomas5737]

23 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Because, silly, Julio has started 4 more games than AB, yet has 767 fewer total yds, 10 fewer TDs, and 135 fewer receptions.  Plus, Jones was drafted as the 6th OVERALL PICK, whereas Brown was drafted in the 6th ROUND. Then don't get me started on the 5" height advantage that makes him better.

Plus, Julio was injured in 2013, and Brown's injury was 2012, so Julio has only dominated the league for the last 3 seasons, whereas Brown has for the 4, so that clearly...no, wait, that's backwards...ok, forgot I said that. And don't even think about bringing up Brown's 5/50 streak...or being the only WR to ever have both 1000 return AND receiving yds in the same season...

Yep! The less versatile, less distinguished (2 AP 1st Team All-Pros vs 3 AP 1st Team + 1 2nd Team All-Pros), 'lower statistically'-rated player is FIRMLY the #1 WR in the game.

Like 43M said. Not that Julio Jones isn't in the conversation, and not that Julio doesn't have his arguments FOR being the best in the game, but acting like he's clearly the best, with no other WR even a possibility is just flat-out wrong. 

You guys are manipulating stats though. Julio has 4 more starts but has played in 21 less games. In 2011 Brown started 3 games and had 1100+ yards. Brown also has almost 200 more targets than Julio. The 5/50 streak was dumb because of the times they forced it, takes away much of the meaning in my eyes. Brown clearly has the returner advantage as an overall player.

 

23 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

But Brown has more catches, barely less yards, nearly double the TD and a better catch rate (with less drops) the past three seasons...

steelcurtain said that^  I just quoted from the wrong post. Again, Brown did that with about 50 more targets. If you have a lower yard per reception you should have a higher catch rate and it will take more catches to equal the yard production. The TD stat is fair and actually goes against the grain a little bit because usually receivers with low ypr have less TDs than those with the higher ypr.

 

I prefer Julio, each bring a different skill set and each could be argued as the leagues best. I don't know if it is necessary to try to use "more catches and a higher catch rate and almost as many yards" to attempt to raise one WR though because in my eyes if you do more with less that would be advantage Julio. I'd bring up TDs, even though in their careers there isn't much of a difference between the two in TDs per target or TD per reception but Brown has a small and slight lead in each so go for it.

[Blackstar12]

Falcons slightly due to Ryan's age.

[Ward4HOF]

19 hours ago, Thomas5737 said:

You guys are manipulating stats though. Julio has 4 more starts but has played in 21 less games. In 2011 Brown started 3 games and had 1100+ yards. Brown also has almost 200 more targets than Julio. The 5/50 streak was dumb because of the times they forced it, takes away much of the meaning in my eyes. Brown clearly has the returner advantage as an overall player.

 

steelcurtain said that^  I just quoted from the wrong post. Again, Brown did that with about 50 more targets. If you have a lower yard per reception you should have a higher catch rate and it will take more catches to equal the yard production. The TD stat is fair and actually goes against the grain a little bit because usually receivers with low ypr have less TDs than those with the higher ypr.

 

I prefer Julio, each bring a different skill set and each could be argued as the leagues best. I don't know if it is necessary to try to use "more catches and a higher catch rate and almost as many yards" to attempt to raise one WR though because in my eyes if you do more with less that would be advantage Julio. I'd bring up TDs, even though in their careers there isn't much of a difference between the two in TDs per target or TD per reception but Brown has a small and slight lead in each so go for it.

Oh, I'm sorry, the 9 games AB played in his rookie season, where he didn't start and collected a whopping 167 yds should count? Sorry, but Starts DO matter. Yes, he had a good 2nd year when he didn't start, but where do you draw the line.

And as far as the 5/50 streak being forced? 1) That wasn't until the very end, and 2) welcome to half the recent records in the NFL...you may as well call half of those dumb as well...the sack record, etc. sorry, that's legitimate. It was a record before it EVER started becoming 'forced', as you say.

[Thomas5737]

2 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Oh, I'm sorry, the 9 games AB played in his rookie season, where he didn't start and collected a whopping 167 yds should count? Sorry, but Starts DO matter. Yes, he had a good 2nd year when he didn't start, but where do you draw the line.

Just ignore the starts and games played all together and go by targets. Saying Julio has 4 more starts and less yards is silly when there was a year Brown didn't start (he started 3 games)  but led his team in targets.

 

2 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

And as far as the 5/50 streak being forced? 1) That wasn't until the very end, and 2) welcome to half the recent records in the NFL...you may as well call half of those dumb as well...the sack record, etc. sorry, that's legitimate. It was a record before it EVER started becoming 'forced', as you say.

I don't know if it is actually even a record, just a fun stat. It certainly isn't something that separates any two receivers.

[Ward4HOF]

On 8/21/2017 at 11:16 AM, Thomas5737 said:

Just ignore the starts and games played all together and go by targets. Saying Julio has 4 more starts and less yards is silly when there was a year Brown didn't start (he started 3 games)  but led his team in targets.

 

I don't know if it is actually even a record, just a fun stat. It certainly isn't something that separates any two receivers.

Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, don't you think? To some, it will show a WR that was much more difficult to take out of the game than Julio. And as far as just going with Targets, then fine, Brown was targeted more often, which could again, point to is ability to be more 'available' for his QB than Julio was. To some, that can make a difference as to who they would rather have.

The point is, they are two different WRs, and the constant need on this board to attempt to compare the two, or try to say one is better than the other is pointless; they provide completely different skill-sets to their offenses. AB will never present to be the RZ target or Deep Field threat that Julio could be, and Julio will never present the versatility and shiftiness that Brown provides.

If one likes Julio better for those reasons, fine, but there will be plenty who prefer what Brown has brought to the Steeler offense more, as well...doesn't mean one is 'better' than the other; they are just different, so saying that Julio is 'Firmly' the #1 WR in the NFL is kind of silly...especially coming from a Falcons' Fan. My point was just refuting that statement; not that I think Brown is 'Firmly' the #1 WR in NFL...that never came from me...until just now in denying that I ever mentioned, of course. And I wouldn't.

I COULD say that Brown has more AP ALL-PROs over the past 3 years...and that he's averaged higher ranking in NFL's top 100 over the past 3 years, with this last year being the first time Julio edged him out by 1 (4th vs 3rd), and all sorts of other 'evidence' contrary to the statement of Julio being 'FIRMLY' the #1 WR in the league though...so that statement is actually pretty easy to refute.

[Thomas5737]

5 hours ago, Ward4HOF said:

Well, that's in the eye of the beholder, don't you think? To some, it will show a WR that was much more difficult to take out of the game than Julio. And as far as just going with Targets, then fine, Brown was targeted more often, which could again, point to is ability to be more 'available' for his QB than Julio was. To some, that can make a difference as to who they would rather have.

The point is, they are two different WRs, and the constant need on this board to attempt to compare the two, or try to say one is better than the other is pointless; they provide completely different skill-sets to their offenses. AB will never present to be the RZ target or Deep Field threat that Julio is, and Julio will never present the versatility and shiftiness that Brown provides.

If one likes Julio better for those reasons, fine, but there will be plenty who prefer what Brown has brought to the Steeler offense more, as well...doesn't mean one is 'better' than the other; they are just different, so saying that Julio is 'Firmly' the #1 WR in the NFL is kind of silly...especially coming from a Falcons' Fan. My point was just refuting that statement; not that I think Brown is 'Firmly' the #1 WR in NFL...that never came from me...until just now in denying that I ever mentioned, of course. And I wouldn't.

I COULD say that Brown has more AP ALL-PROs over the past 3 years...and that he's averaged higher ranking in NFL's top 100 over the past 3 years, with this last year being the first time Julio edged him out by 1 (4th vs 3rd), and all sorts of other 'evidence' contrary to the statement of Julio being 'FIRMLY' the #1 WR in the league though...so that statement is actually pretty easy to refute.

5-50 wasn't a thing (that I know of) prior to AB. It proves he is a big part of their offense but that is about it. As far as AB getting more targets pointing to him getting open more, sure it could say that or it could say that he is running shorter routes and is part of a short yardage passing game more so than the receiver who gets less targets and more yards. I don't think there is a positive or negative there whether you argue for one or the other.

I'm not debating whether Julio is clearly #1 or not I'm just stating that you are fabricating stats trying to prove that Julio isn't. You don't need to do that.  Stating "Brown has 700 more yards in 4 less starts" is unnecessary (especially when he has had 170 more career targets). It would be like saying Julio averages 13 more yards per game when Brown only had 19 targets in his first 9 games. Catch rates and total catches mean very little in the comparison also because ypa explains that. Shorter routes equal more opportunities and higher accuracy percentage from the QB. I'm not belittling it or everyone would be doing what AB does it just explains why he has more catches and a higher catch rate for similar yardage. I'll ignore the NFL top 100 comment.

[JaguarCrazy2832]

I like the Steelers more slightly. I think Julio and AB are close enough to be even but think Bell is better than Freeman more than i think Ryan is better than Big Ben. Bryant and Coleman are comparable to me

[Magnus-Viktor]

On 8/14/2017 at 6:11 PM, jarren said:

As a Falcons fan Id go with the Steelers. 

Ryan = Big Ben

Julio > Brown (I'm not sure why people think AB is better. Julio is firmly the #1 WR imo)

Bell > Freeman

Bryant > Sanu

 

You picked the right group, but Ben > Ryan, unless Ryan picks up where he left off last year and then you're probably right.  Brown and Julio is debatable.  I'd take Brown because of his precise routes and the stats don't lie (he is vastly superior to Jones statistically) but Julio is more physically dominant.  Bell is a whole level higher than their RBs.  Bryant vs Sanu?  Bryant was the far superior player, but he hasn't played in a year, so what is he now?  

 

I just wish the Falcons had been a little better last year so they could've finished that SB off!

[Kip Smithers]

I'd take the Steelers core but I am also in the camp that Julio has pulled away from Brown. He has proven he isn't just this physical specimen, he's now very good in the technical aspects of the game on top of his physical gifts. 

[TheVillain112]

In my opinion, taking various factors into account:

Big Ben > Matt Ryan (If we're talking about just one season)

Bell > Freeman

Julio = AB

Coleman/Sanu > Bryant (until Bryant can consistently produce on the field)

I would give the slight edge to the Steelers here...

[Thomas5737]

9 hours ago, TheVillain112 said:

Coleman/Sanu > Bryant (until Bryant can consistently produce on the field)

This isn't likely going to be a popular opinion but I agree today. Bryant has great size and ability but he needs to stay on the field and he needs to stay focused within games. Hopefully he matured since the 2015 season and he will do what is expected of him by his team and QB. Well hopefully he doesn't, I'm a Browns fan but for his and the Steelers sake...

[Ward4HOF]

On 8/21/2017 at 5:35 PM, Thomas5737 said:

5-50 wasn't a thing (that I know of) prior to AB. It proves he is a big part of their offense but that is about it. As far as AB getting more targets pointing to him getting open more, sure it could say that or it could say that he is running shorter routes and is part of a short yardage passing game more so than the receiver who gets less targets and more yards. I don't think there is a positive or negative there whether you argue for one or the other.

I'm not debating whether Julio is clearly #1 or not I'm just stating that you are fabricating stats trying to prove that Julio isn't. You don't need to do that.  Stating "Brown has 700 more yards in 4 less starts" is unnecessary (especially when he has had 170 more career targets). It would be like saying Julio averages 13 more yards per game when Brown only had 19 targets in his first 9 games. Catch rates and total catches mean very little in the comparison also because ypa explains that. Shorter routes equal more opportunities and higher accuracy percentage from the QB. I'm not belittling it or everyone would be doing what AB does it just explains why he has more catches and a higher catch rate for similar yardage. I'll ignore the NFL top 100 comment.

That was made ONLY in response to the silliness of the the statement that Julio is FIRMLY the #1 WR in the NFL, with the point being that other NFL players don't feel that way, but hey, if a Falcons fan on FF says it, it must be true...that wasn't really meant to be 'actual' evidence, but sometimes, the best way to refute something silly is with 'silly' evidence...like useless polls that show otherwise...  

[jsthomp2007]

Great comparison...I don't know who I would pick.  Big Ben is one or my favorite QBs ever.  I think Julio is one of the best WRs I have ever seen.  Bell has a lot of talent, but unsure if has even put it all together yet.  I will go with the Steelers because they have been doing it longer than the Falcons Big Four.  If the Falcons can keep it going for awhile, I think they can surpass the Steelers (assuming Big Ben stays around for a  year or two longer).