Week 2 GDT - Minnesota (1-0) @ Green Bay (1-0)

[smetana34]

Theilen really considered a twitchy athlete? Alexander was drafted to deal with guys like Diggs, Tate, OBJ, etc. You put him on Diggs and let King go with Theilen. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

2 minutes ago, smetana34 said:

Theilen really considered a twitchy athlete? Alexander was drafted to deal with guys like Diggs, Tate, OBJ, etc. You put him on Diggs and let King go with Theilen. 

I thought that too, but Theilen had a three cone at his pro day that was reportedly like 6.77 to Diggs 7.03.

I always have viewed Diggs play as having a very explosive, fast acceleration, twitchy appearance, but Thielen as a slower good route runner.

With a three cone like that, it would suggest Theilen as a good route runner due to being able to change direction quickly.  While King has a good three cone as well, I feel like his reaction time limits him coming out of breaks.  Maybe that will be better this year, but he appeared to get caught a little flat footed on a red zone incompletion last week.

We will see. I am guessing Pettine will adjust matchups untill he finds the one(s) that work best.

[ReadyToThump]

4 minutes ago, smetana34 said:

Theilen really considered a twitchy athlete? Alexander was drafted to deal with guys like Diggs, Tate, OBJ, etc. You put him on Diggs and let King go with Theilen. 

Theilen seems like a more smooth athlete than twitchy. Runs good routes and has good long speed aswell. I agree with you about Alexander. 

I think we have the right guys in terms of matching up with their WRs, Dalvin Cook is the player I could see being a big mismatch, both running and catching the ball out of the back field. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Looking up the combine/ pro day numbers surprises me- 

I find it interesting that Josh Jackson matches up pretty well against Theilen's numbers- Almost identical 10 yard split on the 40, a 6.86 three cone.  With his size and instincts he could be an option on Theilen as well.

This is the first year in a long time that I feel we have the athleticism in the defensive backs to go with a set of WR's like Minnesota or some of the other top teams have.

I am encouraged about this defense's potential.

[ReadyToThump]

15 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Looking up the combine/ pro day numbers surprises me- 

I find it interesting that Josh Jackson matches up pretty well against Theilen's numbers- Almost identical 10 yard split on the 40, a 6.86 three cone.  With his size and instincts he could be an option on Theilen as well.

This is the first year in a long time that I feel we have the athleticism in the defensive backs to go with a set of WR's like Minnesota or some of the other top teams have.

I am encouraged about this defense's potential.

Me too, rag. Only thing that worries me is our pass rush. Perry, CMIII and Gilbert form a solid trio, just don't have the faith in the former two to stay healthy. *knocks on wood*

[Cadmus]

Look, I love numbers, but this whole conversation has gone completely down the rabbit hole. 

Are we really comparing the numbers of players who have been in the league for 4+ years to rookies? Comparing Pro Days to the NFL Combine? 

At a certain point in an NFL career the numbers don't mean anything anymore.

Otherwise... Xavier Rhodes couldn't cover anyone with that 3C, Antonio Brown wouldn't have the agility to break CBs ankles, and Arian Foster would've never made it off the practice squad. 

Diggs literally had Sherman tripping over himself at times last weekend. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

14 minutes ago, Cadmus said:

Look, I love numbers, but this whole conversation has gone completely down the rabbit hole. 

Are we really comparing the numbers of players who have been in the league for 4+ years to rookies? Comparing Pro Days to the NFL Combine? 

At a certain point in an NFL career the numbers don't mean anything anymore.

Otherwise... Xavier Rhodes couldn't cover anyone with that 3C, Antonio Brown wouldn't have the agility to break CBs ankles, and Arian Foster would've never made it off the practice squad. 

Diggs literally had Sherman tripping over himself at times last weekend. 

You're right in that the rookies will have an experience issue in dealing with the Minnesota vets that have honed their craft.  But they will learn from it.  I don't expect them to have perfect games, but to be honest I am more comfortable with them than I was with Randall who was unable to adequately press and was not assignment sure.  

Sherman is not what he used to be so that part doesn't bother me.  

Do I expect that the guys will shut down Minnesota this game?  No, not really.  I think they will put up a good fight, and I think they have the physical ability and skill set to grow into it this season though. 

As an aside, I believe Xavier Rhodes never ran a 3 cone.  Have you seen one for him?  He had a 4.43 40, and a 40.5 vertical which for a 6'1" corner showed he had the physical substate to go out and compete with anybody.  He developed the technique with experience, but his measurables were pretty darn good on the tests he ran.

[Cadmus]

27 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

You're right in that the rookies will have an experience issue in dealing with the Minnesota vets that have honed their craft.  But they will learn from it.  I don't expect them to have perfect games, but to be honest I am more comfortable with them than I was with Randall who was unable to adequately press and was not assignment sure.  

Sherman is not what he used to be so that part doesn't bother me.  

Do I expect that the guys will shut down Minnesota this game?  No, not really.  I think they will put up a good fight, and I think they have the physical ability and skill set to grow into it this season though. 

As an aside, I believe Xavier Rhodes never ran a 3 cone.  Have you seen one for him?  He had a 4.43 40, and a 40.5 vertical which for a 6'1" corner showed he had the physical substate to go out and compete with anybody.  He developed the technique with experience, but his measurables were pretty darn good on the tests he ran.

7.29 (PD), I have the 3Cs and 40s for every CB drafted in the Top 4 Rounds (in the last decade or so) on a spreadsheet. 

Like I said before, I like numbers.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

22 minutes ago, Cadmus said:

7.29 (PD), I have the 3Cs and 40s for every CB drafted in the Top 4 Rounds (in the last decade or so) on a spreadsheet. 

Like I said before, I like numbers.

I wouldn't hang your hat on that number for Rhodes.  This is from the coverage of his pro day:

"Rhodes did not have as strong of a showing as some of the other top prospects in on-field drills. The field conditions were wet Tuesday, and that caused issues for Rhodes, who had trouble with slipping in his changes of direction in drills."

That is why the pro day number isn't reported anywhere but Wikipedia.  He had cramps at the combine, so he's never had a reasonable chance to run it.

[Cadmus]

3 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

I wouldn't hang your hat on that number for Rhodes.  This is from the coverage of his pro day:

"Rhodes did not have as strong of a showing as some of the other top prospects in on-field drills. The field conditions were wet Tuesday, and that caused issues for Rhodes, who had trouble with slipping in his changes of direction in drills."

That is why the pro day number isn't reported anywhere but Wikipedia.  He had cramps at the combine, so he's never had a reasonable chance to run it.

I'm well aware of the field conditions for his PD. Those agility numbers were on the high end for any CB so I investigated a bit back when I input them a few years ago.

Those are the numbers reported on NFLDS, I would never pull any numbers from Wikipedia. 

Either way, Rhodes has never been a sub 7.0 player in terms of agility in my eyes.  At best, he was probably a 7.05-7.1 guy. 

Not that any of this matters. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

5 minutes ago, Cadmus said:

I'm well aware of the field conditions for his PD. Those agility numbers were on the high end for any CB so I investigated a bit back when I input them a few years ago.

Those are the numbers reported on NFLDS, I would never pull any numbers from Wikipedia. 

Either way, Rhodes has never been a sub 7.0 player in terms of agility in my eyes.  At best, he was probably a 7.05-7.1 guy. 

Not that any of this matters. 

what is your abbreviation NFLDS?

[Cadmus]

1 minute ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

what is your abbreviation NFLDS?

nfldraftscout

[MacReady]

Why you using Richard Sherman in your example though?  He's eff old coming off a major injury.  There's a video of some no name Niner receiver doing that to him in practice this year.

[Cadmus]

3 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Why you using Richard Sherman in your example though?  He's eff old coming off a major injury.  There's a video of some no name Niner receiver doing that to him in practice this year.

Marquise Goodwin isn't a no name WR. He's one of the most underrated players in the NFL and has developed into a fantastic route runner. 

Sherman didn't need to be the example, that was just the most recent game. Diggs toyed with Witherspoon a fair share during that game. 

Diggs had the highest success rate vs. man coverage of any WR in the NFL last season. 

His 2017 score, was also the 4th highest rate vs. man coverage in the in the last 5 years. The only two players ahead of him were AB (x2), and Odell. 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

11 minutes ago, Outpost31 said:

Why you using Richard Sherman in your example though?  He's eff old coming off a major injury.  There's a video of some no name Niner receiver doing that to him in practice this year.

Bad example, but a good point.  

Diggs has made athletic corners look like trash in the past, and still does.  So has Theilen.  So while it is reassuring to posters like me that we can throw at least 3 corners out there that are not obviously athletically outmatched, the experience/speed of the game can still be the undoing of an inexperienced secondary.

It is a valid concern.  I will reiterate that I am more comfortable with these guys even as inexperienced rookies than with what we threw out there in 2016 when Diggs went off for 180+ yards.  Randall was athletically ok but was totally inconsistent and couldn't get his head right, Rollins was athletically deficient, and Gunter had good press coverage but lacking in top end speed.

This will be a tough test for the defensive backs, but hopefully with the right calls they will do better than rookies normally do.

 

As another aside, I don't see us winning this game.  It will however be a good learning experience for the young players so that they will be more ready when we get to the very difficult road show in the middle of the season, and more importantly for the last part of the season and the playoff run.  This game will make them better players for later.